The complexity of this game has surpassed non-optional permadeath

We can quibble over which was intended, but the OP clarified his position succinctly when he said this in a follow-up post:

I never said anything about making a non-perma-death style the default.

Maybe you didn’t read the follow-up post. Maybe you are interpreting the OP. That’s fine. But you’re still arguing against something which the OP is, by their own words, not suggesting. So it’s a moot point.

I’m not in favor of making save/load the default either - though I would go so far as to say that it doesn’t matter whether option A or B is the ‘default.’ Both are options. The game will play identically regardless of which is the default - what matters is what option you choose. At that point it’s a matter of, well, personal vision.

It’s fairly plain what the developers of the game see in Cataclysm. Having been the curator on large projects, I understand how easy it can be to obsess over small details and raise their importance to world-crushing status.

The notion of perma-death as a game mechanic is a sticky one. I don’t think it’s a game mechanic, I think it’s a playstyle. Gunpoint’s circuits are game mechanics. You can build a game around a playstyle, sure as you must build a game around the mechanics that feed into it. But you cannot ‘break’ a game by playing with a different playstyle. What results is a divergent experience of the game, not a broken game. When you change your playstyle you set your own rules, your own expectations, and your own definition of fun. This doesn’t break the game. You can, however, ‘break’ a game by changing the mechanics.

I can choose to play ‘ironman’ or ‘hardcore’ in any game, really. Sometimes those games offer the option to enforce that play-style, or some permutation there-in. The new Thief has the option to not allow saves inside levels. Basically making each mission its own self-contained ‘ironman’ mode. You don’t lose the entire game, but you have to restart the level. Again, that’s not a mechanic, it’s a playstyle. A mechanic would be something like the shadows reducing the AI’s ability to see you.

If I decide to play Skyrim with additional rules imposed upon myself (either through mods or my own self-imposed guidelines) then I am not playing the same Skyrim that someone else is, but my experience of Skyrim is subjectively superior to anything the original developers could have prepared in advance. There are multiple schools of thought on whether or not strictly enforcing/regulating play-styles is a good idea or a bad idea, but one thing you can definitely say about the practice of enforcing play-styles, is that it does more to serve the designer than it does to serve the player. Given that this is a labor of love, I don’t think anyone could be criticized for making exactly the game they want to make.

Diverging from the design document occurs on a regular basis in game development, and with good reason. Sometimes those ‘rules’ are arbitrary, sometimes they outline a play-style more than they outline a series of mechanics which support a play-style. Sometimes you need to let go of some of those rules because they arbitrarily restrict play-style in a way that doesn’t actually improve the game so much as they grasp to a vision. In this case the vision is essentially ‘Cataclysm is a roguelike.’ I think that’s meaningless. Cataclysm is whatever you make it to be. If you want it to have the features of a roguelike then it will have the features of a roguelike, but ‘being like a roguelike’ is not an excuse for ‘being like a roguelike.’ It’s mere circular justification. ‘It needs to be like a roguelike because it is described as a roguelike.’

It could also be a game that is very similar to a roguelike, and indeed, is identical in every way to the game it was before… with one exception; permadeath as a playstyle isn’t actively enforced. If your concern is that some things would be easier with saving/loading, welcome to every other game. Just like every other game would be much harder if you enforce an ironman play-style on it.

It’s not world-shattering, believe me. Projects have undergone much, much bigger divergences from their initial design than simply changing the way the game deals with the death event of the player character. I would argue that virtually every single game design project has gone through a much larger shift in design than what I would consider to be an overblown play-style disagreement.

My position is that enforcing play-styles is counterproductive. People will play the game the way they want to play it, given an opportunity. I think the best thing a developer can do is… let them.

The best thing a game developer can do is not lose their focus and intended direction. Nobody is restricting savescumming, and moving the players’ final saves to a graveyard is planned, but there will be no support past that.

Seriously. Go try arguing optional permadeath on the forums for Don’t Starve, or see if maybe Blizzard agrees to implement a turn-based grand strategy mode into Starcraft 2. This game is designed around permadeath. Roguelikes being a malleable genre simply means that every developer is free to define it however he sees fit for his game, and Cataclysm’s definition includes permadeath as a non-negotiable, non-optional feature. There is no such thing as a serious game of survival with quicksave and quickload/. There are better games to indulge players in the kind of gameplay quickloading your every mistake allows, and Cataclysm is not required to emulate them. The game has a right to its niche. Appealing to everyone is the prerogative of casual games and financial analysts.

[quote=“Hyena Grin, post:79, topic:5464”]Roguelikes as a genre are dumb. It is one of the least cogent genres in existence. Its defining features do not really convey any meaning whatsoever. It is a mere nostalgia for a different era of games, with a few ‘rules’ tacked on. One of those rules is permadeath. They harken back to old arcade style games, when graphics were simpler, content was more freeform, and inevitably you would die.

Roguelikes are almost literally the hipsters of game genres.[/quote]

omg

FORGET ROGUELIKES FOR A MINUTE. Forget any talk of what ‘makes an RL’ or anything like that. CataclysmDDA is defined by permadeath. This isn’t due to some misty nostalgia for RLs or because we are trying to box ourselves into a genre - it’s because the central tenant of THIS GAME is permadeath.

Although I’m usually vehemently against this, can we lock this thread? I really don’t see the point in continuing the discussion when three main devs have said we won’t be getting rid of permadeath and pretty much everyone agrees that it’s a core and essential part of the game.

I know what: let’s DO a poll. Everyone against perma-death shall be summarily walked out of the forum and shot with a sling in the ear…

kinda kidding,
eai

[quote=“Binky, post:84, topic:5464”]FORGET ROGUELIKES FOR A MINUTE. Forget any talk of what ‘makes an RL’ or anything like that. CataclysmDDA is defined by permadeath. This isn’t due to some misty nostalgia for RLs or because we are trying to box ourselves into a genre - it’s because the central tenant of THIS GAME is permadeath.

Although I’m usually vehemently against this, can we lock this thread? I really don’t see the point in continuing the discussion when three main devs have said we won’t be getting rid of permadeath and pretty much everyone agrees that it’s a core and essential part of the game.[/quote]

[me=StopSignal]claps.[/me]

Don’t be melodramatic. Having the option to turn off autosave on death is not going to make anyone ‘lose focus’ or ‘intended direction.’ Let’s move on to something useful.

Seriously. Go try arguing optional permadeath on the forums for [i]Don't Starve[/i]

Happy to. The same argument applies to Don’t Starve. I’m not sure why you don’t think it would. Hell, if I could’ve saved in Don’t Starve I might’ve played for more than… an hour and a half, according to Steam.

Don’t misunderstand my position; I understand the purpose of generating content that the majority of people will never see. It doesn’t matter whether that’s because it is intentionally hidden (an easter egg) or because you are enforcing permadeath and therefore only those players who stick with the game for a long time will actually ever see it.

The intention there is to reward a community of players who pour over your game. It’s self-indulgent. The difference between easter-eggs and permadeath is that the first one cannot be argued to diminish the experience for many players, while the latter can.

In any case, it’s not my personal prerogative to go on a crusade against every roguelike or permadeath game in existence. Especially ones I don’t play. However, I do play Cataclysm. And I think the OP is right.

or see if maybe Blizzard agrees to implement a turn-based grand strategy mode into [i]Starcraft 2[/i].

I think you are still struggling with the difference between ‘play-styles’ and ‘game mechanics.’ Comparing an autosave-on-death feature to what would amount to an entire rebuilding of an entire game from the ground-up, pretty much puts a fine point on this entire issue. You have elevated this one thing, this one ‘feature’ of roguelikes, to the point where you think that it is equivalent to scrapping an entire game.

It is not.

This game is [i]designed around permadeath[/i].

It was designed with it in mind. However, it would not cease to be if you had an option for autosave-on-death. It would be the exact same game.

Here’s an analogy; It would be like if you were to build a bridge for the city with the intention of putting a bunch of statues up along the sides. You like it, the statues are nice and symbolic of some event that you and other people think is important, people drive by them and seem to like them also. Except over time the stonework starts to pit and decay, the features of the statues get lost. The city owns the bridge, and they don’t want to put money into restoring the statues, so they have them removed and replaced with lamps or some such thing. You built the bridge, you feel very attached to the statues, it was the WHOLE REASON you designed the damn thing. They may as well TEAR THE WHOLE THING DOWN. Except they don’t. Because even without the statues, the bridge is still a way to get across water. And people still cross that bridge to get to work, or to visit family or friends. Kids still hang out on the bridge, and under it, tossing rocks into the water. People still walk across it holding hands. The bridge has more meaning than this one big important sentimental thing that you built into it. It is no less functional for having lost it.

Ultimately, it was just a bridge. And Cataclysm is ultimately just a game. People are going to cross that bridge for their own reasons, and people are going to play that game for their own reasons.

You just feel it would lose some ephemeral ‘something.’ A particular intangible quality that you are going to address here in a minute;

[i]There is no such thing as a serious game of survival with quicksave and quickload/[/i].

Of course there is. You can’t simply take an opinion and present it as fact. I used to play Skyrim as a survival game all the time. I made it miles more involved than the vanilla ever was, with mods. Made the game much harder, added in dozens of survival mechanics, turned off a lot of ‘easy’ features from the main game. I used a mod that would start you off in the middle of nowhere, had no compass or pointer on a map to tell me where to go, had no food or warm clothing or water and a potential to die of the cold or hunger or thirst. And you bet your ass I saved and loaded if I died.

Who are you to tell me what you can and can’t do in a survival game? That’s not for you to decide. You don’t get to tell me how to play my games, that’s your own problem to deal with.</feigned indignance> We each take different things out of games, that’s my point. We each enjoy different experiences. What we do all have in common here is that we all play Cataclysm.

The game has a right to its niche. Appealing to everyone is the prerogative of casual games and financial analysts.

‘Roguelike’ is not what makes Cataclysm ‘niche.’ Neither is permadeath.

It’s a game built in ASCII. It’s a post-apocalyptic survival game with procedurally generated content and in-game building and crafting. It is an open-source project.

It has the right to be anything that the developers and the community leads it to be. It has the right to be a pony-princess-pancake-simulation if it wants to. But not a single thing you’ve said is an argument for permadeath. It is just an assertion that it MUST.

It’s ‘woven into the fabric of the game’ and one tug on that thread would unravel EVERYTHING.

Here’s an idea, let’s try adding in an option to not autosave on death. Let’s see if the world comes crashing down. Let’s see if people en masse cannot help themselves and save scum their way to boredom and never play again. Let’s see if that ephemeral ‘something’ fades. Let’s see if that happens. Then we’ll talk about the sky falling.

As for the graveyard, if it allows you to go back and pick up from an old save(I’m not convinced that is actually what will happen), but we’re still stubbornly refusing to simply make it an in-game option (on pain of world-descructing game-failure aaargh), then I’ve lost all hope for reason here.

It would be the exact same thing. It is literally semantics. And yet this one semantic issue (of whether it is an in-game option or a copy/paste in the save files) is apparently the difference between ruining the game and staying true to its driven-snow purity. An argument over semantics.

[quote=“pulsefrequency, post:83, topic:5464”]omg
[/quote]

oh no not my golden calf

Yeah, I just said roguelikes are dumb. I’d get a ‘deal with it’ .gif but I’d really rather use the english language.

[quote=“Binky, post:84, topic:5464”]FORGET ROGUELIKES FOR A MINUTE. Forget any talk of what ‘makes an RL’ or anything like that. CataclysmDDA is defined by permadeath. This isn’t due to some misty nostalgia for RLs or because we are trying to box ourselves into a genre - it’s because the central tenant of THIS GAME is permadeath.

Although I’m usually vehemently against this, can we lock this thread? I really don’t see the point in continuing the discussion when three main devs have said we won’t be getting rid of permadeath and pretty much everyone agrees that it’s a core and essential part of the game.[/quote]

Why would you lock a thread that a) is still on topic after all this time, b) hasn’t degenerated into wild insults, and c) as you suggest, has no risk of destroying the fabric of the game?

What’s wrong with healthy discussion?

Also I still have yet to see one person even attempt to explain why they think that permadeath is ‘central’ to the idea of Cataclysm, because I don’t see it.

If you want non-permanent death, make a mod or similar. I imagine disabling autosave on death wouldn’t be intensely difficult. Anyway, just because a group of people don’t like permadeath doesn’t mean that Cataclysm has to cater to them for the same reason it doesn’t cater to the people who don’t like zombies: they weren’t playing in the first place and they aren’t going to be playing now, and doing it now would just piss off the current playerbase. Now while non-permanent death and instant saving makes sense in most games, mainly linear ones, Cataclysm is based around exploration and surviving in a harsh world. Hence, a feeling of consequence is required.

To quote the phrase, you’re going to need to buy the fries if you want the burger.

Sure, people could make a mod.

I’d get it. No harm no foul.

It could also be an option in the game that could easily be implemented. I don’t see how that would harm one single person. If people get pissed off about other people playing the game differently than they do, about having an option available that they can choose to ignore, then they need to work out their emotional issues with a therapist.

[quote=“Fniff, post:88, topic:5464”]Now while non-permanent death and instant saving makes sense in most games, mainly linear ones, Cataclysm is based around exploration and surviving in a harsh world. Hence, a feeling of consequence is required.

To quote the phrase, you’re going to need to buy the fries if you want the burger.[/quote]

This goes back to what I said about enforcing play-styles. Who are you to say that is the only way to play and enjoy the game? Who is anyone to say that? Why not allow people to play the game differently? Obviously a lot of the people who play Cataclysm enjoy the permadeath roguelike element. I’m sure that they would not enjoy Cataclysm as much without it. But that’s not everyone. Me, I don’t really care either way. Given an option I generally would rarely go with permadeath, because I play games to invest in them and build something interesting and functional. I play games to get deep into their mechanics and see what I can do with them. I like survival in games, I like risk in games, and sometimes permadeath can be fun. I’d still often play Cataclysm with permadeath on because it changes how you play. But how you play is a play-style and enforcing your own on others when you don’t have to is just flat-out self-indulgent.

What is wrong with other people playing the game differently?

Spawning in items is also a thing, and a perfectly fine thing at that. Who hasn’t gone on a rampage with a spawned in APC and a grenade launcher? And before professions that was the only way you could get a proper RP experience. Yet you wouldn’t exactly call it a playstyle, would you? And while the devs are not putting measures against spawning in items, they’re not exactly making it a part of the game, as it were. Now while saving your game by backing up savefiles is alright (I’ve done it myself a few times when I had a really good character going), calling it a different playstyle would be wrong.

A playstyle is how you act within the context of the game: sneaking around zombies would be a playstyle, as well as going in guns blazing. Savescumming and spawning in items are essentially both ways to make the game suit your needs as a player, and while this is (once again) a reasonable practice it is not one that is going to be officially added in.

But even if it was a legitimate playstyle, when the devs are against it and the majority of players are against it, it’s not going in. While it would be nice to think that every idea is viewed objectively, that is not the truth and some ideas are just not fit for the general crowd. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on the topic, but if you want the option for non-permadeath mods are really the only way to go. While I wouldn’t actually mind an option for non-perma mode (For the same reason I don’t mind there’s an option for item spawning), I’m afraid that this idea simply will not happen in Cataclysm in it’s current state, if ever.

The whole roguelike thing is a red herring, dda is at best a roguelike-like, and that is only applicable as a convinient label to describe the game, not something to base design decisions on.
"no one has presented an argument for permadeath"
you need to read the post before last I made, the short version is "lack of consequences for actions robs player decisions of their importance"
regarding, “support would be easy to add”, I’d like to know what support you mean that isn’t covered by the features I said I’d be happy to add. A checkpoint/restore save system done right is incredibly difficult to get right, and complicates all save file handling.
regarding locking the topic, I have no intention of locking a discussion for merely disagreeing with it. I welcome the discussion regardless of whether anything comes of it.

I took a look back, Kevin.

I have to admit, I am still not convinced. The rationale still seems to come down to an almost identity-driven appeal for a ‘better way to play’ through enforcing play-style upon the player. As soon as you start saying ‘No no no, this is the best way to enjoy the game,’ you are imposing upon the player. Not everyone needs consequences in order to enjoy a game. When a game provides enough features to support a long period of play, consequences can come in a variety of forms.

As soon as you start saying ‘My players are smarter’ or ‘my players are more patient’ all you are doing is generating a self-fulfilling prophesy. You drive away X players and then look to the Y players for consensus. It doesn’t have to be that way. There’s no real reason for it to be that way. Playing without permadeath is a perfectly legitimate, enjoyable way to play any game. It might not be for everyone, but it is for a lot of people.

Anyway, the graveyard thing is fine. It just baffles me why you don’t see this as tacit approval for something which would be easy enough to do in-game.

What I would like to see, is either in the options or at the start of world-generation, give the player the option to turn off permadeath. If they use their own free will to choose to play the game without permadeath, then upon dying the game would pop up the question; “Do you want to load your last save? Y/N”

Really simple. And the people who don’t want to play that way, would never see it. They would get the same experience they always have. Except that they’d have an additional option to make life easier while testing things.

Consequences such as…?

I disagree completely. I believe that permadeath, if it is coded into the game, is a game mechanic. Why? Well because if coded in it has become a mechanic of the game itself.

Permadeath as a playstyle, to me, would be more along the lines of “hardcore” or “ironman” as you mentioned. Self-imposed ways of playing the game that aren’t hard-coded into the game itself. You’re choosing a specific style of play personally.

Cata has permadeath, but it is implemented in such a way that it is very easy for people who dislike that game mechanic to do a couple little tweaks and still enjoy their personal playstyle. Save-scumming is easy to do. Backing up characters is as easy as renaming or copying a folder.

Saying what amounts to “well that isn’t good enough” won’t get that changed … the powers that be have spoken. Eloquence aside (and strawman arguments not aside) sooner or later the counter argument to “no we aren’t going to do that” just sounds like a temper tantrum and shouting “well that isn’t fair!”

[quote=“Hyena Grin, post:87, topic:5464”]Why would you lock a thread that a) is still on topic after all this time, b) hasn’t degenerated into wild insults, and c) as you suggest, has no risk of destroying the fabric of the game?

What’s wrong with healthy discussion?

Also I still have yet to see one person even attempt to explain why they think that permadeath is ‘central’ to the idea of Cataclysm, because I don’t see it.[/quote]

Is it a healthy discussion? I feel like it is one man on a soapbox spewing very long monologues at a crowd of people that disagree with him, claiming that because his logic comes direct from him and his logic circles around to back itself up that he is right, and all others are completely fallible. You’re doing an excellent job of showing why debates are never moderated by, and/or scored by, the people doing the debating. You cannot just say what amounts to “well I don’t think your fact is a fact” and ‘win’.

So, facts from my side of the equation:

Just because a project is crowd-sourced, open to the public to make contributions, blah-blah-blah, does not mean people can show up and basically demand changes be made and expect to get what they want. Cata was never a democracy. Suggestions are nice, always welcome. Sometimes (gasp) people decide not to take them though.

Savescumming is so insanely easy my mother could do it with Cata. That means no one should be complaining it is too hard to do. Character creation is so loose you can make a minor deity with a couple tweaks to the ingame menu options, so no one should be complaining they “lost hours worth of skills” when their character died.

To me (as I stated above), permadeath is a game mechanic. Therefore, you’re asking to eschew a game mechanic that many people feel is a core element in the game for a minority that currently exists on this forum and the suggestion that said minority will grow in the future (i.e. there are all these anti-permadeath players out there that would play Cata if it wasn’t “so roguelike”/hipster). My counter to that is both - maybe they’d like it if they tried it - and/or - well they can savescum if they must, who cares?

Mods mods mods. Mods are where you put things for “the minority of players” who want their different playstyle mode that bends a game mechanic or two. Want dinosaurs instead of zombies? Mod. Want to play Cata in a 1980s world instead of the future? Mod. Want to make death, the only real setback and punishment to doing things stupid in the whole game neutered? Mod it and be done with it.

Games are designed with playstyles in mind. Game Mechanics being the rules that keep the world turning. Monopoly isn’t meant to play without money. You can do so, and if you and everyone playing with you feels that is fun then no harm no foul. Monopoly shouldn’t though, be forced to have a “no money ruleset” because of your specific houserule or playstyle. It shipped as a game with instructions for play … you going off script is your own choice.

You cannot make a game with every single playstyle unlocked unhindered and available to play. They cannot all be foreseen, and frankly, you have to stick to your guns and design what you want to design and anyone that wants to play too far out of the box can mod it if possible.

I find that a terribly clunky analogy. I love analogies, and think in analogy form often, but I can’t grasp that one. Hell, I have degrees in government administration and I did a paper on asset repurposing and bridge redesign, and it still hurts. :stuck_out_tongue: … you never make a bridge “just to show off statues” … that is ridiculous man, really. :slight_smile:

You just feel it would lose some ephemeral 'something.'

Flashing your opinion to trump another opinion doesn’t work. Him saying it’d “lose some feels” and you saying “no it wouldn’t” are two opposing opinions. As you said yourself…

You can't simply take an opinion and present it as fact.
I used to play Skyrim as a survival game all the time. I made it miles more involved than the vanilla ever was, with mods. Made the game much harder, added in dozens of survival mechanics, turned off a lot of 'easy' features from the main game. I used a mod that would start you off in the middle of nowhere, had no compass or pointer on a map to tell me where to go, had no food or warm clothing or water and a potential to die of the cold or hunger or thirst. And you bet your ass I saved and loaded if I died.

Who are you to tell me what you can and can’t do in a survival game? That’s not for you to decide. You don’t get to tell me how to play my games, that’s your own problem to deal with.</feigned indignance> We each take different things out of games, that’s my point. We each enjoy different experiences. What we do all have in common here is that we all play Cataclysm.

Mods mods mods.

You wanted a different play style so you used mods to change it to what you wanted. Do that with Cata.

What you didn’t do, was go to Obsidian and demand they make all those optional mods part of the main game. You just, ya’ know, did it your damned self because you wanted to change the game mechanics to fit your play style.

Do you really believe that death is the only consequence in games?

So there are absolutely no consequences in games that don’t have permadeath?

You have been playing roguelikes for too long, friend.

Every decision has consequences. If you blow all your ammunition killing zombies you didn’t have to kill, and then end up without the means to deal with a major threat and must flee, that is a consequence. If you drive deep out into the country and accidentally crash your vehicle and suddenly you’re kinda stranded, that is a consequence. If you end up taking a risk and eating some not-so-great food and end up spending the next six hours tending to your sickness, that is a consequence. If you take a mutagen and end up with a crappy mutation, that is a consequence.

There are things you can savescum. I don’t, because I enjoy dealing with issues as they come up. But you can’t deal with death. I’d rather spend time puzzling out a solution to a major threat without the tools to make that easy. I’d rather hunt around for another vehicle or camp in the woods and walk home. I’d rather suffer with a bad mutagen until I can find some purifier. I’d rather suffer through sickness and worry about food and water. But there’s nothing interesting about death. There’s no solution to death. You just start over. It is not entertaining (to me).

But to say that there aren’t consequences for bad decisions or random problems if you don’t die from them is rather short-sighted.

It’s already DEAD simple. Copying directory is inconvenient? Talk about self-indulgence…

meh,
eai

I disagree completely. I believe that permadeath, if it is coded into the game, is a game mechanic. Why? Well because if coded in it has become a mechanic of the game itself.[/quote]

It is an enforced play-style. The design decision serves no real purpose other than to enforce an ‘ironman’ playstyle. It does not change anything except the way you play the game, and does not need to exist. A mechanic is something which the player interacts with while playing the game. It defines what the player can and cannot do.

I’m not terribly interested in sementic arguments, however, so call it what you want.

Saying what amounts to "well that isn't good enough" won't get that changed ... the powers that be have spoken. Eloquence aside (and strawman arguments not aside) sooner or later the counter argument to "no we aren't going to do that" just sounds like a temper tantrum and shouting "well that isn't fair!"

You can characterize it however you like. Temper tantrum, strawman-laden nonsense. Feel free. You sound like you’re looking for a fight, and I’m not biting. I’m interested in talking about something. You’re not. Obviously. So… don’t?

Is it a healthy discussion? I feel like it is one man on a soapbox spewing very long monologues at a crowd of people that disagree with him, claiming that because his logic comes direct from him and his logic circles around to back itself up that he is right, and all others are completely fallible. You're doing an excellent job of showing why debates are never moderated by, and/or scored by, the people doing the debating. You cannot just say what amounts to "well I don't think your fact is a fact" and 'win'.

What I think, is that you are more interested in discrediting me than having a healthy discussion. You are putting a lot of effort into poisoning this little well. That disappoints me.

So, facts from [i]my[/i] side of the equation:

Just because a project is crowd-sourced, open to the public to make contributions, blah-blah-blah, does not mean people can show up and basically demand changes be made and expect to get what they want. Cata was never a democracy. Suggestions are nice, always welcome. Sometimes (gasp) people decide not to take them though.

Nobody is demanding anything. This is the suggestions forum. It is, for the most part, free for debate. The developers and people involved in the game’s creation are under no obligation to continue to read or respond to - and certainly not under any obligation to act upon - anything in this thread or any other.

Yet the developers do engage with people. They’re willing to clarify their position. They have a respect for the community of this thing called Cataclysm. I suggest you take a page from them, rather than trying to stuff yourself in the middle and shut down discussion about things you don’t agree with.

Mods mods mods. Mods are where you put things for "the minority of players" who want their different [i]playstyle[/i] mode that bends a [i]game mechanic[/i] or two. Want dinosaurs instead of zombies? Mod. Want to play Cata in a 1980s world instead of the future? Mod. Want to make death, the only real setback and punishment to doing things stupid in the whole game neutered? Mod it and be done with it.

I am fine with mods. What’s your point?

Games are designed with [i]playstyles[/i] in mind. [i]Game Mechanics[/i] being the rules that keep the world turning. Monopoly isn't meant to play without money. You can do so, and if you and everyone playing with you feels that is fun then no harm no foul. Monopoly shouldn't though, be forced to have a "no money ruleset" because of your specific houserule or [i]playstyle.[/i] It shipped as a game with instructions for play ... you going off script is your own choice.

Nobody is ‘required’ to do anything. One thing I will never understand about some people, is how they somehow make a connection between ‘arguing for something’ and ‘forcing people to do something.’ Playing a part in a community effort often means speaking up even when something is unpopular but you think it is right, because sometimes you can change minds. It’s usually worth the effort, even when it fails to do so.

You cannot make a game with every single [i]playstyle[/i] unlocked unhindered and available to play. They cannot all be foreseen, and frankly, you have to stick to your guns and design what you want to design and anyone that wants to play too far out of the box can mod it if possible.

Nobody is asking for every single playstyle to be supported. What is being asked for, is an easily implemented option for one playstyle. The developers get to choose what goes in and what doesn’t, more or less. Making a case for one thing is not some floodgate where they will be summarily obligated to support every play-style.

I find that a terribly clunky analogy. I love analogies, and think in analogy form often, but I can't grasp that one. Hell, I have degrees in government administration and I did a paper on asset repurposing and bridge redesign, and it still hurts. :p .. you never make a bridge "just to show off statues" .. that is ridiculous man, really. :)

Keep at it, you’ll get it eventually. But at this point, I’m pretty sure you’re just being abrasive for the sake of it. Also: Pont Alexandre III.

You just feel it would lose some ephemeral 'something.'

Flashing your opinion to trump another opinion doesn’t work. Him saying it’d “lose some feels” and you saying “no it wouldn’t” are two opposing opinions. As you said yourself…

Except I didn’t say that. In fact I specifically said that many players would not enjoy the game as much without permadeath. The point I have made, however, is that other play-styles are just as valid, and as it would be easy in this case to support this one, it seems worth doing.

You can't simply take an opinion and present it as fact.

Quite right.

Mods mods mods.

You wanted a different play style so you used mods to change it to what you wanted. Do that with Cata.

What you didn’t do, was go to Obsidian and demand they make all those optional mods part of the main game. You just, ya’ know, did it your damned self because you wanted to change the game mechanics to fit your play style.

As far as I know, Bethesda (not Obsidian) did not have a suggestions forum where they sincerely ask for suggestions from the community.

I hate how the soultion for every everything now in Cata for a person doesn’t like something is PUT IT INTO A MOD.

We need a core fucking game, not a switchboard of content that can be turned off and on at will. Some people like that, I don’t.

Hyena Grin, for all your mile-long posts, you don’t get it at all. Permadeath isn’t just about dying, it’s about not being able to save and reload at will. If something bad happens to your character, you deal with the consequences and do your best to recover from them. This is distinct from a game with quicksave/quickload, where if anything bad happens to your character you hit quickload and redo it.

Do you know what happens to games when players lose their incentive to try and cope with any kind of misstep and begin reloading their game constantly until they get everything exactly right? Programmers stop bothering to give players the option to bounce back from their failings, because they know nobody will try anyway and the effort they invested into that level of complexity will be utterly wasted.

If you want an example of this, look at the Wing Commander series: it originally had a complex branching plotline which allowed you to screw up a mission and then get back on the victory track by succeeding at a more difficult mission. But once Origin realised nobody was playing on from a failed mission and writing the losing track missions were wasted effort, they stopped bothering.

Give that some thought.

Facts:

  1. permadeath in cataclysm is a thing.
  2. there are currently ways to reload a character save with little to no technical skill
  3. this argument is 7 pages long

Opinions:

  1. Permadeath is a major core component in the game, and a large reason of why the game has been balanced the way it is, making it optional circumcises a large part of the balance/pacing of the game.
  2. Adding in such a feature is kind of silly, if you want to save your character so much, just teleport the hell outta jack with the debug menu.
  3. That’s a lot of back and forth for a suggestion which is kind of a null point to begin with.