Strain - A New Resource to Manage

All your responses seem to be overly concerned with that particular scenario. It’s already a bad idea, and it’s become even more so with the recent zombie health buffs and kiting nerfs. If anyone can pull that off, it’s an established player who knows how to game the underlying systems already in place, in which case those systems should be looked at. Implementing such an ill-considered mechanic just to stop this one niche scenario seems somewhat narrow-minded, especially since you don’t seem to consider how it works in the larger context of the game outside melee combat.

And I don’t think it’s far-fetched to say it’s a vicious cycle. You have people in the ranged thread going ‘we should introduce a mechanic that makes it harder to use range and forces you to melee’ and then you have this thread where someone goes ‘we should introduce a mechanic that makes it harder to melee and forces you to use ranged’ and neither side appears to pay attention to each other. It’s not hard to see how the trend will continue.

I think that combat can rapidly drain fatigue from even experienced fighter (especially if multiple combatants is involved). Its only looks like "John hit Z – Z hit John " stuff on the screen, but I’ve always imagine Cata-fight as some Z fiercely grabbing char, char desperately avoiding plague dripping teeth while fighting for his/her life and so on. Not leisure walking among very-slow-and-stupid-punchbags or practicing your kata on dummies. Possibility to die from starvation while killing 1000 Zeds through window seems… not so realistic.

All opinions listed above are good in one way, or another. Its true that combat-nerfing thing should be considered with caution, but strain system, to my mind, is tactical addition, not nerf-the-melee stuff. Encounter with 10-20 Zs should be thing to consider rather than quick “where is my trusted zweihander?”. Reposition, hiding in houses to catch your breath, luring groups of zeds in trap fields rather than chopping them all in one row seems good challenge for me. I remember situation when I found a motorbike and tried to rush through town. I hit the wall, fell of, and became surrounded with 20 or 30 Z’s. I was really scared back then. But quick run to nearest thin passage between houses, broadsword and some slashing quickly changed deathtrap situation (and, possible YASD) to victorious one.

So… I vote for implementation of well thought and balanced strain system (or for increasing fatigue loss in fighting, especially with heavy weapons).

This. If done right, I can see CDDA turn into a really tactical game: Lure zombies with sound, set up traps (the least used skill), divide a zombie horde into smaller packs and kill one by one, use terrain to their fullest advantages, consider what weapon to use (light vs heavy; melee with infinite ammo but tiring vs ranged with finite ammo) and so on…

For all the breathless excitement your narrative conjures, mechanically it boils down to ‘step back, mash the next turn button every once in a while’.

Also there’s no way we’ll get a well-balanced and well-thought out strain system. Nobody here appears to consider the mechanic in the broader context of the game, especially considering the recent nerfs. This entire thread started because someone tried to graft this onto mutations, then when it didn’t work, clumsily tried to shoehorn it into an even larger context. Suggesting it was a bad idea and implementing it would be an even worse one.

And the enemy AI is several orders of magnitude below the level you’d need for the tactical game you dream of, no need to implement additional complexity in anticipation.

Your arguments seem to boil down it’s impossible to implement correctly, “no way we’ll get a well-balanced and well-thought out strain system” or it’s a bad idea and there are no way around it; and I must say that I remain unconvinced, if you claim “no way” without at least telling people why do you think so, and actually discuss what others have said without simply dismissing their arguments (what Uneron and Sanarr said). You keep thinking that this strain system will be “hit 3 or 4 zombies and step back, hit wait and repeat” while people were actually discussing how to implement it without it being to tedious; for all we know the intention was “prevent player from plowing down a horde of 30 zombies at a broken window non-stop” not “let’s make the zombie fights longer”.

Wow, you are really cynical when it comes to the development of this game. You really think not a single dev could come up with a good system? If you are that pessimistic about the future of the game why even post in the Drawing Board? Could save yourself a lot of frustration.

There really isn’t much of a middle ground between waiting a few turns and having to rest for an hour or more. The former would be tedious and not that much of an improvement from the current system, the latter would hurt early-game characters more than late-game ones. And I don’t see the deluge of proposals on how to actually make it work, much less how to make it less tedious. It’s a fundamentally ill-thought-out mechanic that won’t add anything to the game, and would actively worsen it. Under that circumstance, I feel obligated to cast doubt upon it.

Also when have I dismissed other arguments? Every post has been in direct response to points they’ve brought up. And the intention might not have been ‘let’s make zombie fights longer’, but I don’t exactly see it making zombie fights shorter, and if it makes zombie fights take exactly the same amount of time then it seems redundant to implement it.

Here’s my take on this.

Strain/exhaustionis a good thing, mainly because that’s the way it is in the real world, and will eventually go into the game in one form or another. That said a system such as that will require careful balancing and much examination before it’s ready to go in.

I don’t see what’s wrong with this system, as best I can tell the “biggest problem” with this is it “breaks” a very easy, very over-powered mechanic. “It’ll just add a step of go back to your vehicle and wait”

EEEEeeeehhhhhhwat?

NEVER has “retreat to your vehicle” been a realistic option, even for me, using a spawned-in mil-plated, HD Frame, HD board monster. Because usually what ends up happening is I get to the door, open it, climb in, and then there’s a zombear in the way. I don’t see how slowing the player down is going to make that any easier.

I don’t know how I feel about this idea in general, but I do agree that some sort of “Stamina” function could be useful for preventing late-game characters from being able to stand in the middle of the street and wipe out an entire army of Zs with a zweihander.

There’s already a fix pending for penalties to swarmed characters in the open.

The best way to minimize the effectiveness of choke points (which, while a bit ridiculous at the moment, should still be a valid tactic to some degree) would be to improve zombie group AI so they try to encircle and bash down other doors/windows if there’s enough of them.
I don’t know how doable that is though.

A well balanced strain system will work wonders for a more tactical cataclysm.

I’m sorry, but I can’t find it in on the pull request list on github. Link or proof?

This is certainly an interesting concept, and I support this for all I’m worth. However, I have a few questions about this-

  • Will each action itself strain only after a certain point- that is, a threshold where continuing is strenuous, yet prior to the threshold is easily maintained (ex. walking or jogging vs sprinting)?
    -Athletic individuals handle physical strain much better than nonathletic ones. I can run a mile in 9-10 minutes, whereas others call it at 13, and a few can make 6 minute runs consistently, and still have energy left. Why would strength not matter in the strain limits?
    -How are we going to determine what starts straining an individual? People have very different thresholds based on physicality. Once it drops below the threshold, it normally clears up at a rate proportional to the degree of the strain, correct?
    -How will adrenaline interact? IRL it can allow people to preform physical feats well above their norm, ignoring most limits- except those causing direct musculoskeletal damage, even ignoring pain or trauma.
    -How will injury interect with strain? I suspect it’ll spike it rather painfully- proportional to both the actual damage and the pain experienced.

I’d appreciate it if these concerns and situations were carefully considered as you work out implementing it. I’m also just curious about the intricacies of the system.

Glad to see that this idea is getting some feedback ((Even Inadequate’s)) The whole idea behind suggesting strain was to expand upon the fact that performing melee and other strenuous tasks is a rather shallow system as of yet.

As for Aether’s questions, I’ll do a quick run down.

Will each action itself strain only after a certain point- that is, a threshold where continuing is strenuous, yet prior to the threshold is easily maintained (ex. walking or jogging vs sprinting)?

We don’t currently have a system for sprinting, until such time as we do I can’t really see moving tiles increase strain. For actions tied to a skill ((Dodging, Melee)) these should benefit more from a higher skill than raw physical power. But I could see wielding heavy weapons, swimming, dragging heavy items dependent more on the player’s strength ((And possible mutations)) than anything else.

-Athletic individuals handle physical strain much better than nonathletic ones. I can run a mile in 9-10 minutes, whereas others call it at 13, and a few can make 6 minute runs consistently, and still have energy left. Why would strength not matter in the strain limits?

Athleticism should be tied directly into max HP, as far as I’m concerned, for the lack of an actual endurance stat. So hand in hand strength increases strain burn-off, as would traits that increase max HP and drugs/CBM’s that boost that max HP through raising strength. This way you could have two characters, both with near identical health ((One is high strength the other high dex with the tough trait)) They’d still burn off strain at about the same rate–but assuming they had the same skills one would increment strain slightly slower through actions that require Strength ((Breaking Grabs, Melee)) and the same could be said for the Dex build ((Dodging, moving over difficult terrain.))

Mind you could actually make for strong yet out-of-shape characters via an actual Endurance stat.

-How are we going to determine what starts straining an individual? People have very different thresholds based on physicality. Once it drops below the threshold, it normally clears up at a rate proportional to the degree of the strain, correct?

The idea is that while you continue to preform pretty much any action you burn off strain proportionally to a certain percent of your max hp. Something low enough that you’d never get to a point where performing an action raises strain less than your natural recovery rate. Resting however would recover it much faster ((Passing a turn)) but with a small caveat. Catching your breath like this should give snowballing returns.

Example: You get 3% of the default 84 hp as a return for average Joe’s base strain burn off. That’s 2.5. If he rests a turn it raises to 5%. (4.2) The next could bump it up to 7%. b[/b]. That’s a net drop in strain of 10 by raising burn off 2% each turn of consecutive rest. The player would need four turns of moving around to do the same, should they need to dodge, block, attack, smash a window or move over difficult terrain during that time it would more likely be a deficit.

This way activity will always give even fit, experienced individuals strain–but they would be able to perform difficult actions better for longer than an unskilled or unathletic character. Simply from the fact those actions strain them less based on physicality (How much strain they burn off)) and experience ((Knowing how to do something properly = less strain for doing it.))

This also means that fast, harassing enemies like zombie dogs would be great at keeping players from recovering as other Z’s close in.

-How will adrenaline interact? IRL it can allow people to preform physical feats well above their norm, ignoring most limits- except those causing direct musculoskeletal damage, even ignoring pain or trauma.

If possible I’d like to see things like high-adrenaline and the adrenaline injector flat out drop your current strain by a large amount, but heap the same number back on when they run out. A crash if you will.

-How will injury interect with strain? I suspect it'll spike it rather painfully- proportional to both the actual damage and the pain experienced.

As injury already hampers the player enough, I think we can begrudgingly let that issue slide. After all, I proposed hitting the strain ceiling of 100+ actually damage your character. If injury raised strain it would be a viscous circle.

As always feel free to suggest changes or alternative systems. This is after all a suggestion for a working stamina system, all things considered.

Someone (either John or the rabbit avatar man) hinted that they were going to make a pull request for speed penalties when swarmed by zombies in one of the balancing threads but I can’t find it now.

It’s more than possible they simply didn’t make it afterwards.

Not me, this is the first I heard of it. And actually, it’s a Rabite, not a rabbit. Rabites are cuter, fluffier, and have MUCH bigger teeth. And also no limbs.

It seems like we already have moodlets and systems that do approximate this. It doesn’t have as pronounced of an effect as suggested ITT but it’s there.

We track tiredness, pain, hunger, thirst, and general mood (and the invisible “health” stat for sickness). Eroding those based on activity would use the systems we already have in place, as well as allowing the items we already have to circumvent or medicate that as intended.

Standing in a doorway and marathon swinging a baseball bat through a horde could simply tire you out, make you thirsty, and whatnot. Chugging a sports drink and taking some aspirin or caffiene pills will boost you back up to normal.

IIRC there already is some kind of cost associated with each action? It seemed to me that standing around chopping logs and building will tire you out faster than just sitting down and reading books all day, but it could just be the difference in the length of time jumped ahead with each action.

I’m generally in favor of a short-term endurance system of some kind, from both a realism and gameplay POV. As has been pointed out, operating at full tilt all day, only having to stop to either sleep or chug energy drinks is a quite odd situation to be in. The fundamental focus of a survival game is resource management, and an endurance system would introduce a short-term resource to manage in addition to the mostly long-term resources we have now.

Regarding balance, it wouldn’t be added in a vacuum, in return for not being able to keep going indefinitely, the players short-term power level (likely both strength and speed) would be increased, allowing them to engage individual (regular) opponents with ease, but presenting problems with hordes of enemies, which is exactly the feel we want for the game.

The shortcoming of the existing systems is that they’re very long-term. Hunger, thirst, and fatigue all operate on a scale of hours, not minutes or even seconds, robing them of their urgency.

I fall in favor of some sort of stamina system.

While being grabbed and pulled down by the mob may be an appropriate solution for open combat, I rarely engage a horde without exploiting the use of chokepoints (my years of Roguelike training kick in and I force them to engage one at a time… setting fires just make old school ‘pillar dancing/yakkity sax’ even more effective.)

Fatigue could be tired into, or replace the current ‘tiredness’ which currently seems unrelated to the amount of effort you endure.

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:38, topic:4957”]I’m generally in favor of a short-term endurance system of some kind, from both a realism and gameplay POV. As has been pointed out, operating at full tilt all day, only having to stop to either sleep or chug energy drinks is a quite odd situation to be in. The fundamental focus of a survival game is resource management, and an endurance system would introduce a short-term resource to manage in addition to the mostly long-term resources we have now.

Regarding balance, it wouldn’t be added in a vacuum, in return for not being able to keep going indefinitely, the players short-term power level (likely both strength and speed) would be increased, allowing them to engage individual (regular) opponents with ease, but presenting problems with hordes of enemies, which is exactly the feel we want for the game.[/quote]

Thanks for this post, Kevin!