It’s the kinda thing, and the over the top language being used, that is making your posts come across as hostile, childish, and whiny. You have raised some interesting points, but until you acknowledge that others may have valid viewpoints - such as the game becoming easier than before with static spawns, if using the correct tactics, then they’ll continue to be negatively viewed and reacted to defensively.
If, atm, static spawns are a problem - turn them off.
I just want to go on record here (without a wall of text) as saying I really like the static spawn system.
I haven’t found it to be too hard or broken, if anything it seems like it makes more sense now - no more spontaneous generation of hordes of monsters, also killing stuff now actually has a long term benefit.
I’m sure it will take some time before the system is 100%, but so far I like it.
I think static is the right direction it just isn’t perfect yet. From .02 to .03 is a big improvement.
I would like to see bigger cities with dense cores that are packed with overwhelming amounts. It would be cool if the map generator made a single city half the size of the “reveal map” debug command’s dimensions. That kind of size. And downtown is packed with zombies and hard to get loot (and maybe roaming zombies originate from there and go outward, spawned from a pool). Then it wouldn’t be a simple matter to clear an area.
Just remember people.
(a)
Its just a game, you don’t have to play it.
(b)
Static spawn is relatively, give it some time, maybe you will start to like it after it has some touching up.
I for one really like the concept of it, it just makes the game all around more enjoyable for me.
[sub][sub]Maybe because i’m a survivlest/commando/primetive :P[/sub][/sub]
As already stated, static is fine-- it’s just not perfect. Mostly they just need to turn down special spawns, but until it’s fixed we can always play without it. To be honest, if you run into the center of town with static off you’d probably meet the same fate, if not exactly quite as fast lol. I’ve already cleared several towns with static spawn on.
Also HP ignorant is such a small change that I really don’t care. Seeing the exact number of HP remaining feels kinda OCD.
To be honest though, I’m kinda disgusted with this entire thread. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but explain your reasoning and make it constructive-- criticism and responses from players will help make the game better.
Also don’t trash the devs, I don’t see them exactly rolling in profit from this.
You think they’ll work harder if people spam trashtalk?
I’ve been finding a lot of my starting stuff in military/scientist/drug dealer corpse outside of towns. I could be just lucky, but they’re all over the place. Lots of water, backpacks etc.
Rucksacks. All you need are those.
Prefer belt rigs–they don’t encumber you. Nothing like dropping the rucksack & valuable scrounging (prep for melee) only to have that zed pull a spitter. There goes that run.
I’m still waiting for an answer to my points:
dynamic spawns, to my knowledge, are actually limited
"proper" tactics for dealing with static spawns, specifically using bottlenecks and fires, conflict with the push to nerf window-bottlenecking
definition of center/outskirts of urban areas with illustrated examples, so new players can have some guidance regarding where it’s safe/not to scrounge
As for the “you don’t have to play it” line: true. Nobody does. But you’re getting the more enjoyable game, and we’re not. No wonder you’re happy, and we’re not. If I came and started changing something to conflict with your expectations, you probably wouldn’t be thrilled about that either.
They’re limited in that there’s a population stat for each city. That number is usually somewhere in the thousands. It takes a LONG time to clear a city (longer than you could conceivably need to loot it thoroughly)
Even reducing that population stat to be in the low hundreds wouldn’t be as good as static, imo, though. Static spawns means that you can shift the physical locations of Zs based on your actions - leading them away, trapping them in buildings, etc. With dynamic, even if you could realistically “clear” a town, it would have to be through brute force - no tactical approach possible.
"proper" tactics for dealing with static spawns, specifically using bottlenecks and fires, conflict with the push to nerf window-bottlenecking
Perhaps this might cause a problem. I can see the argument for nerfing windows, though (400 is long enough to take out normal Zs and weak specials with no risk at all), although I’m not too keen on the proposal that we make Zs incur the movement penalties before entering the square (making it impossible to take advantage of the slowdown to hit them).
I’m not sure that bottlenecking in windows and using fire are the only “proper” tactics, though. I’m experimenting with the use of noise at night, for example (chucking radios and explosives to lure Zs to a point away from where I want to be), and there’s all the misdirection stuff that’s been discussed at length already.
definition of center/outskirts of urban areas with illustrated examples, so new players can have some guidance regarding where it's safe/not to scrounge
It’s hard to define, and to a degree it’s just about getting used to it. I came to it as a “new” player like everyone outside the dev team, though, since I had no experience of static spawns before it was introduced in 0.2
I’d suggest looking for “arms” of towns which extend out into the countryside by 2/3 map tiles. Look for areas with only houses, and no shops, since shops tend to spawn in the areas that the game defines as being near the town centre. The bigger the bugger of houses between you and the nearest shop, the safer you are exploring the outer map tile or two.
As for the "you don't have to play it" line: true. Nobody does. But you're getting the more enjoyable game, and we're not. No wonder you're happy, and we're not. If I came and started changing something to conflict with your expectations, you probably wouldn't be thrilled about that either.
I couldn’t agree more with this. We need to start a community documentation of strategies (and, yes, problems) with static spawns asap. Part of the role of the community is to unpack and pick apart elements of the game in order to understand them and survive them. Static spawn is no different in that respect.
If you find a shop far from the center with no shops close you can sometimes loot them.
and houses can be the best things in the game, thanks to the chance of guns.
Personally, my reasons for disliking the idea of static spawns are different than the OP. Rather than make the game too hard, I think they make the game too easy. With static spawns, you can pretty much try to bait zombies, nibbling them to death over the course of a few days while you live off the land, until there’s simply no zombies left and you’re free to loot at your leisure. (If you have a tooled up death machine vehicle, of course, clearing towns is even easier.) With static spawns on, I can pretty much walk around a town with impunity knowing that, if there’s no zombies around, there’s no zombies around, and that’s sort of boring.
That said, I have cleared out a town once with static spawns off. It took awhile, and several characters, but eventually I was pretty much given free reign to modify a vehicle in a garage in the town, without any pesky zombies stopping by to stop me. (Maybe I was just really silent for what few zombies were left?) Perhaps running out of zombies is alright… but I wouldn’t want to make it easy, so perhaps the greater number of overall zombies to be found in non-static spawns is the way to go.
I also dislike the fact that you can permanently clear a town with so little effort (even without using multiple characters). I think roving mobs of Zs will solve that, though.
I’d also be interested in seeing a “trickle” effect between towns. Like how in The Walking Dead there’s always Zs roaming the country road, I think it’d be cool if there were a migration between cities going on in Cataclysm
I think currently difficulty is actually very low if you play a martial arts character - from the get-go you can agro every zombie in town then butcher them all through a 1x1 window… enjoy your new, zombie free town on day 1
[quote author=Benedict link=topic=560.msg6338#msg6338 date=1364085979
They’re limited in that there’s a population stat for each city. That number is usually somewhere in the thousands. It takes a LONG time to clear a city (longer than you could conceivably need to loot it thoroughly)
[/quote]
Challenge Considered.
[spoiler] Challenge Accepted. Looting a small town of everything that isn’t nailed down (we smash those apart and take the nails too,) shouldn’t be too hard. The bonus is, as long as you don’t make much noise there should be less overall zeds to deal with at one time, until you start crashing about like you own the place-- and then a hulk will pop as you’re making your gleeful escape to ruin your shit.
As for the community documentation/feedback I fully agree. We should make some polls and stuff.
Loving the new reduced Zed sight range, might want to increase their hearing a tad to compensate imo. I’ll be doing some heavy testing today at some point, I’ll let you guys know the results tomorrow.
First off - why shouldn’t it be too hard? What challenges are there in the game, if not that? (Let’s be honest, a player capable of taking on a town full of Zs is at the peak of his/her fighting ability, and towns are the best places for loot in the entire game)
Secondly - The stealth proposals should make your idea a reality. With reduced Z vision, it’s already possible to loot a house with a Z in full view, as long as you’re quiet. That should only improve with vision checks and whatnot.
As for the community documentation/feedback I fully agree. We should make some polls and stuff.
EDIT:
For those who asked, here’s an image of a town I’ve been looting. The houses with Ns on them have already been looted (plus the 4 in the bottom left without Ns) and the blue line represents what I think I’ll be able to loot without too much resistance (ignore the blue line going off to the right. That’s a town centre, judging by the bank).
So far I’ve only met about 6 Zs (one brute) and that was because I smashed open the door on the very rightmost house and attracted some from the south, and then met some on the open road to the northwest.
I’ve got enough drink to last several days, now, and a crowbar and a few tools.
There actually needs to be more of a challenge in my opinion. I’ve been able to loot way too much stuff, and with a vehicle, I could conceivably keep surviving like this ad infinitum, without any real danger of starvation or thirst, and without ever needing to fight anything.
OK, that’s a start, and it’s good to know that structures affect zed prevalence. In the (old!) mapgen code I’ve got handy, it looks like a straight random roll. Thanks, Benedict.
Problem is, I don’t see an evac shelter on that map so I presume you’ve been going for a while. Not sure whether you’re operating from a fixed base or a vehicle. How secure is that Lab?
(I’m thinking: not very–a highway isn’t that great of protection and I’m not seeing a water source.)
Well I don’t need a water source, because there’s enough empty houses to provide me with 3-4 days of drink.
As for sleeping, I can sleep in one of the houses! It might be best to close the curtains/board up the windows, as a precaution, but it’s by no means necessary in an empty suburb.
Like I said… too easy 
As it happens, I explored north a bit, and found another ten houses completely unguarded, with a gun-nut shelter.
I got bitten by a fresh Z early on, though, and the wound got infected, which killed me. Starting a thread about that elsewhere.
Honestly, I’m loving the static spawn more than the dynamic one. Being able to lure zombies away from buildings and (eventually) cleaning out a small town to use as a base (that I like to imagine has lots of neat NPCs wandering around growing food and trying to resume some semblance of a normal life again) is intensely satisfying. Sure, you can load up in plate armour and throw yourself at the hordes with a sword like a standard dungeon crawler roguelike if you want, or you could slowly lure Zs away and into waiting traps, pick them off with thrown weapons, or make a bunch of noise somewhere else and just loot the newly-vacated buildings with impunity.
The dynamic spawns never gave me a feeling like I was actually accomplishing something by tricking or eliminating enemies, since there’s essentially an unlimited supply of the bastards that can just spawn wherever if I step on a noisy bit of gravel or what have you.
(Yes I know there is a limit to how many will spawn on dynamic but the number is so ridiculously high you’ll have looted anything of value long before you hit it.)
Count me as in favor of the new spawns. (And awaiting a “roaming group” mechanic to up the difficulty a bit after you’ve cleared a region) I had some great fun sneaking around the edge of town the other day, sometimes popping out from around a corner to lure a solitary Z out to the bushes around back so I could whack his stupid butt.
Best moments were sneaking around behind the buildings to stay out of sight of the Zs shambling out front, then carefully removing windows with the screwdriver I found and the stone hammer I made. I’d quietly creep into the back of the building, using (X) peek to keep an eye on where the zombies were, without getting spotted. Then I would try to creep up close enough to shut the curtains, and the house would go dark, and suddenly I could loot the place with impunity while the cop zombies and such shuffled around in the street outside.
Sometimes it wasn’t possible if the house were arranged a certain way, other times I had to wait for the Zs to move a ways before I could get close enough to the window, but when it worked, it felt awesome.
The new system is way cool. I like it a lot better than zombies magically appearing around me, and having 90 minutes of shopping spree time so I’d never have to make do with subpar equipment. It’s harder in some ways, easier in others, but it seems to open up a lot of new strategy.
I’m pretty sure it was possible under the old spawn system to clear out a city of zombies. It pulled from a population pool didn’t it? Basically it was just a case of not all of the zombies being present at once.
While I personally like it when the game becomes more difficult, I don’t think everybody will agree with me and I can see why people find these changes to be rather daunting.