So many tools, but no use beyond one

stone94 · 2013-07-14T16:43:58.000Z

Okay so we all know we find so many tools everywhere, and once we have one of each we have no real use for the rest, so what I propose is to add tool durability to them to which they will break therefore we have to reason to risk our necks for tools more often,
also same for weapons which could be similar to arrows, but instead of disappearing when they are completely damaged they could go like blades dulling requiring sharpening, or blunt weapons cracking or denting making their effects weaker.

Pthalocy · 2013-07-14T18:31:26.000Z

There are plans to add both tool durability and tool quality to both found and crafted items, at some future stage.

It’s just a bit large of an overhaul to implement right away.

woflsipder · 2013-07-14T20:05:09.000Z

I bet when that gets implemented , tools will break after 10 uses , weapons wil snap in half after 20 zombies and guns will get jammed every 30 shots.
Every other game has this level of realism.

Birdie · 2013-07-14T20:48:14.000Z

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I really doubt it’d end up that tedious.

Jotun · 2013-07-15T02:18:18.000Z

It’d be nice if we could find a toolbox which would allow you to carry lots of tools with a set amount of volume taken up.

As it stands a crafter-type character needs an awful lot of tools even in the field.

Actually, I just had a thought, I’ll go make a thread about it.

stone94 · 2013-07-15T02:50:48.000Z

[quote=“woflsipder, post:3, topic:2211”]I bet when that gets implemented , tools will break after 10 uses , weapons wil snap in half after 20 zombies and guns will get jammed every 30 shots.
Every other game has this level of realism.[/quote]
I somehow doubt that those statistics are realistic xD however to add realism to a game would make it far too overpowered but then again, life is overpowered.

stone94 · 2013-07-15T03:06:21.000Z

[quote=“Jotun, post:5, topic:2211”]It’d be nice if we could find a toolbox which would allow you to carry lots of tools with a set amount of volume taken up.

As it stands a crafter-type character needs an awful lot of tools even in the field.

Actually, I just had a thought, I’ll go make a thread about it.[/quote]
I could make a toolbox for you but it would probably be like a backpack that encumbers your hands with the storage space exact to the volume of the tools, im useless at c++ coding so im no help beyond that.

GlyphGryph · 2013-07-15T11:33:01.000Z

[quote=“woflsipder, post:3, topic:2211”]I bet when that gets implemented , tools will break after 10 uses , weapons wil snap in half after 20 zombies and guns will get jammed every 30 shots.
Every other game has this level of realism.[/quote]

As someone who worked on doing the item quality and condition system (and failed, it really is a pretty big project) I at least know how I intend to have it turn out.

Primitive Tools may break after a day of use, if you’re unlucky. They might last longer. But probably not too long. Crafting with them might also reduce the condition of the resulting item.

A commercial tool, like a metal wrench, is probably going to last forever. There is a chance if may wear over time (especially if used as a weapon), but effectively it won’t be a problem. Maybe replace it every few in-game months if it sees heavy use and you regularly use it for things it is not appropriate for.

Jotun · 2013-07-15T14:02:49.000Z

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:8, topic:2211”][quote=“woflsipder, post:3, topic:2211”]I bet when that gets implemented , tools will break after 10 uses , weapons wil snap in half after 20 zombies and guns will get jammed every 30 shots.
Every other game has this level of realism.[/quote]

As someone who worked on doing the item quality and condition system (and failed, it really is a pretty big project) I at least know how I intend to have it turn out.

Primitive Tools may break after a day of use, if you’re unlucky. They might last longer. But probably not too long. Crafting with them might also reduce the condition of the resulting item.

A commercial tool, like a metal wrench, is probably going to last forever. There is a chance if may wear over time (especially if used as a weapon), but effectively it won’t be a problem. Maybe replace it every few in-game months if it sees heavy use and you regularly use it for things it is not appropriate for.[/quote]

I approve of your remarkable universe in which everything is not made of crepe paper.

How did you license such robust engine technology? I mean, the AAA studios still haven’t invented durability tracking which doesn’t result in items breaking if you take them out of your inventory too sharply.

kevin.granade · 2013-07-15T14:34:41.000Z

It’s a matter of priority, we have some number of work items we can do, AAA studios have like 10,000 times as manay available, unfortunately they allocate something like 100,000 times as much effort to things we don’t spend all that much time on, like advertising, business management, meetings, graphics issues, sound design, and making money; in roughly that order, so in the end we have more resources allocated to game mechanics, since it’s pretty much all we do

stone94 · 2013-07-16T03:33:57.000Z

im in no rush for these features, keep doing what your doing mastered mechanics will keep me worshipping you guys. . . not really im not a creep xD, but i enjoy playing a game with mastered mechanics and material more then looking at its pretty graphics.

Pthalocy · 2013-07-21T06:28:19.000Z

Functionality is always at the forefront in my books. Basically the hallmark of a roguelike since that interface isn’t eyecandy so much as intensely legible. But that’s part of why we love it. Durability description given by Glyphgryph sounds fantastic to me.

Samscale1 · 2013-07-24T14:58:58.000Z

A durability system would be cool, but doesn’t that mean that every item would have to have a number of uses because you can fight with pretty much anything from a scarf and a bottle of pills, to grenade or a gun to a baseball bat or a knife

darth_servo · 2013-07-24T18:46:13.000Z

Samscale1:

A durability system would be cool, but doesn’t that mean that every item would have to have a number of uses because you can fight with pretty much anything from a scarf and a bottle of pills, to grenade or a gun to a baseball bat or a knife

There are a lot of ways you could implement a durability system to take into account the game’s ability to use any object in melee.

vultures · 2013-07-24T20:09:06.000Z

Did it ever occur to you that a skilled mechanic/marksman/cook takes care of his/her tools along the way?
You can make toolboxes craftable. Give it a nice symbol, even draw a simple clipart for the tiles project. The only real difference you’ll ever feel is that you can pack items that are larger and heavier than it ought to pack in real life.
Furthermore, if you find an integrated set bionic - there’s every tool you’ll ever need.
The recipe for the toolbox, which will I add now to my copy of the game is :
Steel plating - 1
Pipe - 1
Chunk of steel - 1
Welder - 30 charges
A crafty mechanic (lvl 2) can create it with no fuss, in 45 minutes.

darth_servo · 2013-07-24T20:26:43.000Z

vultures:

Furthermore, if you find an integrated set bionic - there’s every tool you’ll ever need.

Because of a quirk in the code, last time I checked you should still carry a Hammer around with you if you want to disassemble any furniture with your Integrated Toolset.

Hyena_Grin · 2013-07-24T20:48:32.000Z

Tool/weapon durability is extremely important for Cataclysm. I hope it gets done sooner rather than later. It’s not terribly difficult to get all of the tools you need to do just about anything together in one small area, and then you never, ever, ever, ever, ever (get the idea?) have to worry about it again.

The game should encourage more scavenging, and tools and weapons are a little too easy.

I think the way I’d probably handle it is thus:

Every tool has its own chances of losing durability for certain tasks. For example, a wrench:
Primary Use(mechanics): 0.5% chance of losing durability. Secondary Use(example: hammer alternative): 1.5% chance of losing durability. Weaponized: 1.5% chance of losing durability. Each time the tool is used it runs the percentage and if you’re unlucky, the weapon degrades by 1 durability point.

Each tool has an amount of durability. For a manufactured wrench this might be 8. For a makeshift shovel this might only be 2.

The (remaining) durability of a tool is also directly related to its effectiveness. At low durability, tasks take longer and the crafted item may start with lower than maximum durability itself.

So a makeshift shovel at max durability (2) may take x2.0 longer to dig a hole. A manufactured shovel may have a max durability of 6, but if it has been reduced to 2 durability through wear and tear, it would also take x2.0 longer to dig a hole. So durability can remain a constant across all usages and all tools.

Tools with very high durability (very high quality tools) may actually confer some benefits, speeding up crafting times and maybe even making superior tools with more durability than normal.

This allows you to tie durability and item quality into one simple system. Superior items have more durability and last longer than other tools. Shoddy tools start with less durability. Certain kinds of tools may be less or more prone to damage. A stone hammer at durability 2 and a steel hammer at durability 2 (due to degrading) will be just as good at their tasks, but because the manufactured hammer is made of quality materials it will have a lower chance of degrading further than the makeshift stone hammer.

Durability can also tie directly into weapon statistics. Superior weapons have higher durability and confer higher damage, and/or higher to-hit ratings, and/or lower movement costs. As the weapon degrades these stats decrease as well.

kevin.granade · 2013-07-24T21:24:14.000Z

For some things this makes sense, but for others, not so much. I don’t think I’ve ever damaged a wrench, screwdriver, or hammer, and I wouldn’t consider myself exceptionally careful with them. Modern forged hand tools just shouldn’t wear out.

Now there are certainly some angles we can explore to address the same issue:

Makeshift tools.
These would definitely tend to wear out, tools have to be extremely tough, and something you’ve cobbled together from bits and bobs probably isn’t going to be up to it.
Consumables.
Where possible/reasonable, have consumable components for tools. Hacksaw blades and welding rods both come to mind, along with solder for electronics, and of course batteries. Probably many more I’m not aware of.
Specialised tools.
Introduce super-rare tools that you need to do certain tasks optimally. Maybe you can still assemble an engine without a timing pulley extractor, but it’s always slower.
Recipe availability.
We’re planning on continuing to expand on the variation in acquiring recipes, moving a lot of them off the “auto-learn” list. As this progresses it should become a much bigger deal to go hunting for recipes in addition to acquiring tools and raw materials.
Special components.
I don’t think I have t expand on this one, there’s a lot more we can do about making recipe components more unique and varied.

vultures · 2013-07-25T02:23:31.000Z

Lemme tell you what I know.
The materials that form the structure of a frequently used tool tend to break after abuse.
If you ever played any worthy hack’n’slash that has the durability system with, say, AD&D value system, then you know that you can’t just go all shogun-like on an army of heavily armored orcs with a shortsword and a wooden buckler; spears break as well as the bones shutter. But then, if you use magical weaponry to your virtual satisfaction and enter a repair shop, any kind, to get some skilled help, you only find out that they use the same tools, not only the same brand but the same items for many years. So what we could have here is, just maybe, this :
a) Cheap tools. The hardiness and material quality just don’t cut it. Think of them as plastic bags, a dozen uses and Christmas is over.
b) Wide-used tools. Yes, your screwdriver’s still as good as new, but can it punch through a solid iron bolt of a railroad track to help pry it out? Better stay at home and eat sponge cake and screw some softs back on your computer case lid.
c) Industrial standard tools. It’s that hammer that was used to build brick, concrete and stone houses in your neighborhood. It’d probably withstand an acid shower coated with nitroglycerin.
I’d still like to be wrong somewhere, but I had actually seen drill heads with points that withstood hellish tasks and temperatures. Some are just good enough for the job.