This is a reality bubble issue, and is actively something that is intended to be addressed. Same problem with most games, hard to have realistic ranges without melting hardware, the stuff you’d be shooting at wouldn’t be in existence. So most weapons are scaled to reality bubble ranges, just to have some differences between effectiveness going from a pistol to a rifle.
As for dodging bullets, you’re conflating a dodge with a miss. Juking and jiving around increases the odds of the weapon being pointed away from your person when the trigger is pulled, or the arrow loosed, which would make it just a straight up miss. This is separate from what dodge is in the game, which is recognizing an incoming attack that will strike, and evading it before it does strike. Even ‘slow’ firearm projectiles are in the thousand foot per second range, normal humans wouldn’t even realize the trigger had been pulled before they’re hit. Perhaps with the right augments or mutations, slower projectiles like arrows would be on the table, but there’s no world in which you recognize and evade a supersonic projectile. Hell, the acceleration required to even try would probably kill you on its own.
As for the current state of dodge in game, it feels pretty right to me. I’ve practiced some HEMA, and any time we messed around and tried 2 on 1, any attempts at pure evasion that weren’t “actively backpedal in the other direction as fast as possible” just weren’t much of an option, you’d get clipped. And what zombies lack in active intelligence, they make up for in the fact that they’re not standing at a respectable distance swinging fists, they’re going in for grabs and bites and such. Dodging two people trying to latch onto you at the same time, without leaving the immediate area, just isn’t something I’d consider possible.
Yes this is what I mean, is it in the game or planned for it?
So would kiting with using a longish weapon be something that’ll be in CDDA? Spears work, but are complete jank with fighting range at corners which give no range bounce. I could just make a weapon range overhaul with every weapon getting better range that’s not a knife or hand to hand.
Also, why build into dodge for one on one? When you can build into block with strength one on x? Building into dodge when you can just use power armor or plated survivor armor and just stand there.
I think the nerf was pretty alright. I felt ambivalent about it. On one hand, the game got harder and more realistic. On the other hand, I now have to create my own martial art if I want a character who can run into a group of zombie and escape unscathed. Wait, I’m already doing that.
That the range is too short is correct, for sniper rifles as an extreme example, and a known issue.
If you don’t trust the tile distance, you can take building lengths/widths as a calculation base. It does not change the fact that at this distance, you can’t dodge an arrow.
No, you argued that “That’s not how [it ]works in real life.”…
It does not invalidate a fact, but using games to explain real life just does not work out. You explicitly stated that it’s not “how real life works”, but failed to explain how real life works and just referenced other games. Bring forward real real life examples to make a point.
Yes, because games use hitboxes and characters move at the press of a key… Again, you’re try to compare games and real life, without taking into account that real life is not that simple as it is depictured in games.
That’s what the game accounts for by “missing your character”, not actual dodging. You don’t get better in “jiggling around” if you are nimble and better at dodging. Try do this in real life to impress me.
Again, this isn’t really dodging. And if you’re moving like this the whole time someone is aiming at you, you’re not going to do this for long.
Would you know, someone actually tested if you can dodge a bullet in real life… At 500 yards - looking directly at the gun, using extra-bright blanks and being prepared for it - they were able to do it… barely.
Great, I did consider the site you’ve linked in my example already: “The median reaction time is 273 milliseconds.” = “Normal human reaction time is said to be around 250 ms (for expected events)”.
My fastest was 131 ms, with an average of 193 ms:
And yes, I can catch dollar & euro bills dropped.
This is great, if someone aims at my index finger, as I can probably move it out of the way if I expect it to be hit. It does not say anything about moving my whole body over a longer distance out of harms way.
You - the player - knows that, yes…
Because you usually don’t have power armor nor plated survivor armor on day one.
Because surviving a zombie appocalypse is not just running into hordes of Zombies and dodging everything, but to plan how to use your surroundings and the things you have to your advantage.
Because of balance, and I’m sure it will change again - as this game is still in development.
Because martial arts do change things up and allow you to dodge more, as mentioned many times before.
I actually like this idea a lot! Not the moving away thing through the tiles because thats not very intuitive, can get you killed, and seems like a pain in the ass…
But I do like that being surrounded gradually hampers your dodge instead of it being a yes or no thing
Also I dont think this dodge nerf is a big deal. Being surrounded is obviously bad, its the main strength point of the zombies (the main antagonist faction) because of their numbers, fighting using chokepoints is a main mechanic in a lot of roguelikes.
And it doesnt make much sense that just because your character is op you dont need to really bother about being surrounded.
Also armor has encumbrance and warmth drawbacks while dodge does not
Not entirely sure. I’m pretty sure player aim is thrown off by an entity moving at speed, but I’d be surprised if monsters had that in. Not sure about NPC’s when they’re using guns, if they actually use the same player shooting system or not, but if they do, then it’ll work. This being said, its important to acknowledge that evading fire by movement has functionally nothing to do with the skill of the person trying to not get shot, and everything to do with the skill of the shooter. A competent shooter will know how to hit a moving target, its the inexperienced shooters that’ll overcompensate or fail to notice movement while shooting.
It already is in CDDA, with reach weapons. I’m not sure what you’re referring to about corners and range bounce though. Maybe your thinking of the circular distances toggle making things a bit weird on diagonals, but I dunno if that was addressed for reach weapons or not. A longsword might have better reach to it than a knife, but at the tile scale of approx. a meter across, a longsword isn’t reaching out and hitting targets two meters+ out. Maybe if you held it by the very end of the pommel and lunged it forward, you could just poke 'em with the tip, but thats not exactly effective
As for why to build into dodge for one on one? Dodge is an extra opportunity to evade a hit. Block and Armor are inferior to dodge, because Blocking and Armor hits both don’t guarantee 100% mitigation, and can damage the weapon or armor. Having high dodge and being able to never take extra hits in the first place increases your effective combat endurance by reducing wear and tear. They’re not supposed to be taken in isolation, block, dodge, and armor all combine as part of the players defensive options, with their own weaknesses as well.
Yes, I was thinking that you can’t dodge even one extra attack normal until you learn some most likely fake martial art is no bueno.
I feel like it’s the martial arts are why dodge was so op. And not the dodge skill so much natively, besides the flawless dodging while totally being surrounded.
Yes, it would be hard and low-skill characters should only be able to dodge one enemy at a time. But a mod I made with a mutation with character with 40+ dodge and 30 dex that should be able to do way better than a lowly human and this the problem with this system black and white nature.
One last problem is with one emeny being dodge-able, you can’t choose which monster you want to dodge over another. Like you’re going to want to dodge a juggernaut over some overly agriessive bird that just decided to join the battle.
Yes, and you’d be lucky to have dodge above 5 when you start on day one without dex above 12. Most characters I make have no skill points at that point if you’re midmaxing, because you can start with a profession that has good armor at the start, and/or quickly find riot armor and fix it with a bit of rags.
Hitboxes in games are generous for getting hit easier, not the other way around. Which would make my case more plausible than not. And just because it is a press of a key, does change the fact that the character in the game can still be able to move out of the way with a slow jog at range, which should imply you should be able to dodge arrows around 30 meters away. And if you’re a dex mutate it should be even short ranges like 10 meters.
That was for the velocity that the arrow that travels speed is matched to the real-life speed of a normal arrow long bow. I not trying to bring out test results because I feel like my point is clearly obvious that a stationary zombie, vs animal that charges straight at you, vs a human frantically milling around, vs dex/speed mutation character that is quickly darting around. That you’d think there should be some kind of difference between the four, no? But I think in CDDA there is no difference at all for hitting these three targets. Also, Profugo_Barbatus said what I meant for “jiggling around”.
I could, but I don’t want to hurt someone by shooting them with a gun to test this theory. I could buy blunted arrows to shoot someone. But then I’d have to find a bb gun to shoot someone and I don’t have the money to buy stuff like this right now.
Here’s a good video to prove me wrong about all of this, right? Even though they are incompetent cringy hooligans. The arrows are slow and noisy and being shot almost point-blank. You can still see movement does “something” to mitigated getting hit slightly. But I was never said dodging should help much, just do something. Movecost with quickness assisted with dex and dodge skills should change how hard it is to get hit by range weapons.
Two more just for good luck.
At the northeast, northwest, southeast, and southwest. Your spear has no extra range which makes its range useless when moving diagonally.
Well from my game experience, armor has worked far better than dodging for me anyway. Armor can fully take absorb damage and repairs are easy to do because training crafting skills is still easier than training combat skills. I also play with int skill rust at half speed and skill training a 33% of normal speed, which makes learning combat skills even harder than crafting. Also, finding riot armor is very easy, and uses a very low skill level to repair with just rags.
{
“type”: “mutation”,
“id”: “SLOWRUST”,
“name”: { “str”: “Slower skill rust” },
“points”: 0,
“valid”: false,
“purifiable”: false,
“description”: “Your skills rust half as slow. Intended for games with lowered skill training speed.”,
“skill_rust_multiplier”: 2,
“starting_trait”: true
},
Only going to touch on thd matrix comment
Most guns fire once and are loud it’s not unrealistic to duck at the sounx of a gun firing and dodge the bullet to say nothing of the full auto turrets that would hit everything around and behind you but individually not unrealistic
This much more unrealistic for low tech weapons like thrown rocks bricks and bottles on masse hard to avoid but individually relatively easy
And for arrows and the like the game obviously doesn’t show focus very well you would have a better chance of dodging an attack you can see coming maybe multiple directional dodging is unrealistic but that’s not easily solved
Overall not sure why this needed a major nerf considering zombies thst grapple are already in the game and make dodge ineffectual like they want
Gunfire is, excluding niche use of subsonic rounds, supersonic. By the time you heard the gunshot, much less started ducking from it, the bullets already hit you. There’s no realistic situation in which you perceive, and then evade, a shot after the trigger has been pulled.
So if you’re character was twice as fast as them or more (200 ms), dodging could work. But other wise, your only bet is trying to make the shooter miss.
Yes, there is a difference between a Zombie and an animal and a player. They do calculate the dodge differently. But that’s not what you’re asking for. Your base statement was “dodging is unrealistic” and “you can dodge projectiles”. Which I’ve proven wrong by real life examples. “My point is clearly obvious” is not a number…
Yes, he did: “As for dodging bullets, you’re conflating a dodge with a miss. Juking and jiving around […] is separate from what dodge is in the game, […]”. Just as I’ve written: ‘‘That’s what the game accounts for by “missing your character”, not actual dodging.’’
Yes, these nerf arrows have the same speed as a real arrow or bullet… Jokes aside, they have about the same speed as a thrown object (based on a frame-to-frame comparison). For a lot of them the aim seems off anyway, as they go over head or hit down at foot level, so hard to judge how much they really “dodged” and what was missed anyway. And that “point-blank” is probably not as close as you think (unless you mean that moment in the end where Mr. Fishbach lands his shot at a distance of about 1 meter), but hard to guess since the video might not be cut precise enough. In an older video, this is easier to judge (based on the fence and their body height) as they shoot from at least a distance of 10 meters, more likely 20 meters.
You’re making it easy for me to disagree:
The next video you’ve posted is actually a prime example on how to fail to dodge an arrow.
At one point you see how an arrow sails above his/her helmet, only to send him ducking after it passed him/her. And the blocked arrow just after that hits the shield where it already was. At the end s-/he “dodges” another arrow, which is again unclear if it would have hit him/her in the first place.
And the last one shows again how to miss a shot… It’s aimed too high (even stated so in the description) and would have grazed the doe at best. Distance and arrow speed (“high”) unknown.
But yes, some animals have faster reflexes than humans. Keep in mind, we’re still talking about “dodging skill” for humans - the resason you’ve opened this topic - not “mutant” or “animal”.
Profugo_Barbatus answered this perfectly and I did too a few posts up with the mythbusters video. Bullets are just too fast.
I can’t read the rest of the text as it’s missing any and all punctuation.
The problem is that no human can just “get fast”. Some limitations are given by signal speed and muscle/brain communication which cannot be bypassed.
With the myth busters video, you can agree that some slow launching arrows would miss at 30+ meters because you said at 18 meters it was 300 ms and they could dodge about 450 ms in the video. However, this is a moot point because nothing really shoots you with a bow in CDDA. Slings and throwing however have to be slower. Slings can reach higher speeds than a compound bow and (120 feet per second) for just throwing. But when people throw that hard, they have little accuracy when they swing that hard. The speed I think would have to be sustainably slower to hit a player.
Nah I give up. After asking my brother for the math and I was less sure about dodging bullets in the first place anyway. I’m just a hobbyist forager/ sculptor, not some physics teacher. I was always not so great at math when I did it in school.
So I changed my mind, making the shooter miss is really the only way to avoid getting hit.
Anyway, I would say the dodge should help in the calculation of making the shooter miss. As I would think if someone experienced with dodging would have better kinesthetic ability than someone that doesn’t. They then can make better use of their speed like if they have the quick trait and fleet foot, and not stumble as much when trying “jiggle” as you’ve put it.
And high dodge should let you dodge more than one target. But never more than four at most.
By the way, I have a question, does block mix with dodge work well? As in if you dodge, your character will try to block the enemy that they aren’t trying to dodge?
But this is a game with characters that can get 20+ dex as mutate and bionic with speed augmentation. Those characters should be able to dodge arrows, slings, and throwing weapons, but they can’t.
As far as I can tell, yes, they dodge and block seperately. Even if they roll for a dodge and fail, there’s - to my knowledge - still going to be a block roll. And if that fails as well, it checks the armor. And afterwards “natural armor” (skin, bark or similar), if I recall correctly (they might be combined with the armor you’re wearing).
But be aware that there’s also a limit for block rolls too (blocks_left), set to be 1 by default, that can also be affected by martial arts ("bonus_blocks").
So, normally, fighting 3 enemies at once without any martial arts or other modifications will result in getting hit at least once (safe for armor protecting you or fighting enemies that are slower than you).
I agree. I think there is at least one bionic that makes that possible (Uncanny Dodge CBM), maybe even more (I think there was one that deflects projectiles found it: Active Defense System CBM).
But some mutations should work as well. As far as I’m aware of, there is an overhaul planned for at least how they work, and maybe even balance them out a bit.
Well, technically, there is: if someone is firing a sniper rifle at you from like 5 km away, and you know it’s going to happen, and you see a flash, then you might be able to move away.
But that’s not gonna happen in the game, ever.
Actually I think dodging makes sense right now. Don’t stand still and fight and expect to dodge hits.
Slowly kite back as you fight. Active movement reduces the number of zombies that can hit you at once, especially since zombies block each other.
Alternatively fight in a proper chokepoint. Brawling lets you block hits so you can take a 1 v 2 while taking low damage, or even a 1 v 3 if you can stun the closest target. Fior de battagia outright lets you block 3 enemies at once which actually gives it a buff since fior techniques actually prefer a block over a dodge and previously mega late game survivors would dodge everything and make fior kinda useless. Likewise other block based styles also recieve an indirect buff.
The dodge changes only really matter if you are being dumb and standing still to fight in the open. Or when hunters apear but I see that more as a late game mechanic, cause before this change I always saw them as regular zombies with much higher speed. Now they are a real threat if you can’t kill them quickly when they jump behind you.
I feel really sad for niten though. That technique is resting in pieces after the change and is only really good for 1v1 now.
its always been that way from what i’ve seen.
even before nerf you’d be have only 3 dodge at very best because of armor encumbrance. you’re just begging to be shot without armor anyways and you can’t dodge bullets (yet)
At the beginning of this thread, I was on teamGiggleGear, by the end I have begun to appreciate the thinking behind the change. At most, like discussed, having a scaling debuff that increases the more surrounded you are, making it impossible to dodge beyond a certain point, aside from being grabbed.
I’d sat their testing wasn’t rigorous enough since let’s be frank, our favourite walrus probably isn’t the epitome of human condition and their sample size was too small and the encumbering gear would slow down his movement. We’d need more test subjects in various states of physical fitness wearing different clothing to be truly conclusive, in addition to the fact various types of ammunition travel at different speeds. That of course though would incur various ethical problems… However that does not mean I thought humans could easily dodge a bullet
Since dodging arrows is still coming up, I’d like to expand on a previous comment of mine.
Perhaps with the right augments or mutations, slower projectiles like arrows would be on the table
At sufficiently long range (Hundreds of feet away), recognizing and evading an arrow is a reasonable prospect. Any range under a hundred or so feet, and the proposition becomes very dicey. A proper wooden bow fires its arrow in the 200-250 feet per second range, depending on the draw weight. A modern compound bow will get you 300+ in a lot of circumstances.
Both those velocities are enough to make it extremely unlikely that an unmodified human can recognize, much less move out of the way of an incoming shot. Their best survival bet is to recognize the archer drawing on them, and then raise their shield, or start running perpendicular and hope to throw off the aim. Once you factor in human reaction times to actually perceive something, you’d have tens of milliseconds between hearing/seeing the arrow loose, and it hitting or missing you on its own. However, aggressive mutations or cybernetic reflexes may be able to do something in that time window, with a bit of luck, since both could theoretically bypass the human reaction time issue. I’d still be iffy on whether the body can move fast enough to do much either, but again, could chalk that up to the mutation/augmentation. Rule of cool says it should be possible
But just in regards to the videos previously listed: Anything from Foam Gear/LARPing gear can be automatically discounted. Those bows are generally limited to extremely low draw weights (35lb is common), the arrow is weighed down by the protective foam, and that foam head is rapidly decelerating it as well. Nowhere close to a ‘real’ bow shot. As for the hunting video, seems like that arrow was already going too high, and the buck just looked like it got lucky with its back arch as it started sprinting away. And Bio’s already pointed out the Mythbusters probably aren’t examples of strong human reaction times or physical fitness.
Dodging in place would be rolling with a punch to lessen the blow. Useless against projectiles but could be an option against inaccurate attacks and particularly against blunt attacks.
