Professions

[Tankra]

Like any good rpg player, I like having character options. Cataclysm already gives you a pretty interesting set of character traits and options to choose from, but oddly enough you never really get to determine what your character was doing before he survived a zombie apocalypse.

What I propose is to add a completely new tab to the character creation screen that would let you choose your character’s background or profession, which would in turn offer the character a variety of different bonuses as well as affect his or her starting loot. I’ll give a few examples of what I mean:

Doctor - +1 extra skill rank to first aid. Starts with lab coat and a scalpel.

Police Officer - +1 extra skill rank in firearms. Starts with a pistol with 12 shots and a kevlar vest.

Teacher - Begins play with one free beginner rank book of the player’s choice.

Construction Worker - +1 extra skill ranks in construction. Starts with hard hat and hammer.

Drug Addict - Starts addicted to one drug of the player’s choice. Starts with syringe/cheap lighter/crack pipe depending on drug chosen, as well as a week worth of doses of the chosen drug.

Now, I need to stop myself cause I could just keep writing these all day, but you get the idea. Not only does it give you interesting starting options, but it also helps give your character a bit more flavor.

With regards to balance, I’m sure you all have noticed that they aren’t exactly at the same power level, and that’s the idea, because obviously a police officer or a soldier would be better fit to deal with having to kill zombies to survive than a drug addict. I’m thinking a good solution would be making professions mandatory and removing 1 of the 6 build points given at the beginning to represent the average profession’s strength. Then, professions that are more powerful than the baseline would cost build points, whereas professions that have drawbacks would add build points.

Another point I wanted to make is that I conceived of the “+1 skill ranks” to mean that the character is always considered one point higher than his actual rank only for purposes of crafting recipes and skill checks. This would mean than a Doctor and a normal schmuck who both read The Big Book of First Aid would not have the same skill level, even though they technically have the same experience in the skill. This would also mean that characters whose backgrounds make them better at something would be less prone to losing that particular skill over time.

What do you guys think? Personally I would love to see this in the game, and although it might make characters stronger overall, that just gives an excuse to make the zombies more brutal

[Soron]

I like the idea of adding starting scenarios, even if it’s just a different set of gear choices at the start (which could probably be expanded into fuller starting scenarios, when/if those make sense to implement).

I know it’s straightforward to add different starting gear based on player choices. I imagine it’s not too tricky to add another page to the character creation screen, either. I have no idea how “of your choice” works there, but I imagine it would be easy to figure out based on the Martial Arts trait.

I’m a little concerned about the “treated as one rank higher” bit. Your suggestion would require treating the player as 1 rank higher in most, but not all cases, which is tricky and painful to implement in the code as-is. It could be done, I suppose, but to do it right would require a change in the way the player character is coded. I’m also not sure what the point cost should be.

So, overall I like this idea, and the main concept shouldn’t be too hard to implement. If the core devs have no objections, I’ll put this on my personal to-do list, with a small number of professions to start with (one of which will be unaltered from the current behavior).

[AerialK7]

I like the idea, itd give it a new layer of RPGness, like, im not just some faceless guy but im a police officer that starts off with combat training, a baton and a Kevlar vest.

[Otaku]

I always like randomization. So to implement random things into the professions we could have random start items, like teachers get a random book (no choice) or police officers get batons or guns, or construction workers get random tools that the player does not decied apon. It might seem a little unfair but it also adds a little challange to see if the player is smart enough to adapt to the character’s starting items.
Also this might affect the starting place if anyone knows how to code that in, doctor-hospital, police-police dept., construction worker-hardware store, etc.

[Benedict]

This is a good idea (although it has been suggested quite a few times before).

There has been talk of other implementations - for example equipment based, where you only get gear, not skills, for your profession, or implementations where you equipment is based on skill choices, so you’d get some medical gear for first aid, weapons for firearms, etc.

[slydogg9692]

As an avid fan of stories and RP, I am all for this.

Soooo to discuss some stuff:

Balance Issues

If you’re going to make them mandatory, I suggest making a “jack of all trades” or “commoner” profession (That’s technically free) that has no inherent strengths or weaknesses. Not everybody may want to avail the option of professions. There are those, for example, who choose to not invest points in skills.

Thinking about it, balance would also have to take into consideration the long term and short term benefits of the professions. The bonus items, I think, would best have a short term benefit. The bonus skills, on the other hand, are more for long term.

With regard to the starting place matching the profession, it could potentially aggravate balancing issues to a large extent. You have to consider the risks and rewards involved with regard to location; some professions might have a bigger advantage over other professions, like Police Officers in Police Stations or Bankers in Banks. You have to take into account the potential loot (if any), how defend-able the location is, and etc. A glaring problem would be locations that are, logically, located within a town/city. With the system as it is now, how would you expect to survive starting there at such an early stage?

Randomization

I’m not too keen on this one. Sure, roguelikes are known for its randomization but sometimes it can go too far. One thing to consider is that Cata’s CharGen is characterized by its freedom in creation; you decide which goes where exactly how you want. Randomizing parts of CharGen kind of goes against that freedom, diminishing its purpose and character. The game is hard enough as is, and randomizing parts of CharGen would only create an artificial challenge at best.

Other Ideas

How about providing certain traits (both good and bad) that are unavailable in the Traits tab to provide incentive for choosing professions? Just throwing it out there though; I’m quite aware that the issues of balance and coding would potentially skyrocket if this would be applied.

In line with that, why stop at Professions? What about a short History? In essence it’d be the same as Professions, but would have more depth and leeway to it. Makes things much more complicated though. Not saying that we should do Histories instead of Professions. I was thinking of Professions, in the course of the games development, evolving to something akin to a History. Just wanted to keep that in mind for future reference though.

[Tankra]

If the core devs have no objections, I’ll put this on my personal to-do list, with a small number of professions to start with (one of which will be unaltered from the current behavior).

Sweet. I would help with the coding but I’m not a programmer by any definition of the word. I am however a pretty avid RPG player and I think I’d be able to come up with a balanced and fun initial list of these, say around 10-15 for starters? If it’ll help you, I can work on that and post the list here, and we can get some feedback on balance.

I’m a little concerned about the “treated as one rank higher” bit. Your suggestion would require treating the player as 1 rank higher in most, but not all cases, which is tricky and painful to implement in the code as-is. It could be done, I suppose, but to do it right would require a change in the way the player character is coded.

I don’t know how hard my “+1 to effective skill rank” suggestion would be to implement, but I really think this is the direction Professions should take, because otherwise the book mechanic would make these professions as useless as it is to buy skill points at the start. What I mean by that is that there really isn’t a point to starting with Mechanics or First Aid or Firearms at 1 when any shmuck who finds a beginner book and has a few hours to spare will surpass you in skill level. Making the bonus to the effective skill rank rather than just a flat, one-time bonus makes the profession worthwhile from an optimization perspective as well as giving the player a sense that his character is actually specialized in that particular skill.

I always like randomization. So to implement random things into the professions we could have random start items, like teachers get a random book (no choice) or police officers get batons or guns, or construction workers get random tools that the player does not decied apon. It might seem a little unfair but it also adds a little challange to see if the player is smart enough to adapt to the character’s starting items.

I can see the merits of having randomized professions, but slydogg makes a good point in that the game already is built around giving the player a choice over what his character is at the beginning. I don’t know if I would be as interested in the game if I were forced to pick random traits/negative traits and stats. The only behaviour this promotes is roll, suicide cause you don’t like the stats, roll, rinse and repeat. It’s kind of like the Baldur’s Gate approach to rolling stats; anyone who’s willing to spend 20 minutes to roll 4 18s and an 18/00 will eventually manage to get them, so at that point, why not just give it to everyone and save players the trouble of having to reroll ad nauseam?

That being said, I’d be all for a “random profession” option for those of us who seek these types of things. However I think choice promotes replay value, and replay value is probably the single most important characteristic for a Roguelike, given that the medium forces you to replay it, so to speak.

[Fniff]

I think we should take a page out of Liberal Crime Squad and consider the idea of a “choice adventure game” style intro for histories. My idea is that you start out with what you were doing before the outbreak, what you did during it, and what you’re doing now.

A nice idea could be that the randomness could be variable as a means of implementing risk and reward. If you pick “I went to the evacuation shelter immediately” in your intro, then that’s going to start you out pretty much in the same position at the start of the current game but without any real advantages. If you pick “I started up the car and tried to escape”, that could mean you start out with a vehicle but could also mean you start out with a broken-down car and a bunch of zombies on your trail.

[Soron]

I think I agree that mandatory randomization at character creation isn’t the way to go. it’s far too easy to just reroll until you get what you want, and IMO, there’s already the “random character” option for that. Optional randomization, though, is something I can get behind.

As for adding a more in-depth starting scenario system: that sounds like a nice thing to do, but also more involved. I’m not going to bother with that yet, but I’d consider revisiting the idea later on (such as whenever NPCs get fixed).

[quote=“Soron, post:2, topic:661”]If the core devs have no objections, I’ll put this on my personal to-do list, with a small number of professions to start with (one of which will be unaltered from the current behavior).

Sweet. I would help with the coding but I’m not a programmer by any definition of the word. I am however a pretty avid RPG player and I think I’d be able to come up with a balanced and fun initial list of these, say around 10-15 for starters? If it’ll help you, I can work on that and post the list here, and we can get some feedback on balance.[/quote]

That’d be handy, yeah. Having someone handling that part means I have more time to code this :).

I don’t know how hard my “+1 to effective skill rank” suggestion would be to implement, but I really think this is the direction Professions should take, because otherwise the book mechanic would make these professions as useless as it is to buy skill points at the start. What I mean by that is that there really isn’t a point to starting with Mechanics or First Aid or Firearms at 1 when any shmuck who finds a beginner book and has a few hours to spare will surpass you in skill level. Making the bonus to the effective skill rank rather than just a flat, one-time bonus makes the profession worthwhile from an optimization perspective as well as giving the player a sense that his character is actually specialized in that particular skill.

It looks awkward to code, because it appears that the game is built to assume that actual skill level is the same as effective skill level. Although, adding in that sort of distinction could be useful for other things, as well, and it might not be too hard to code. And you do have a good point about increased starting skills being a bit underwhelming. So, I’ll see how it goes, although the first pass I make would be to just get professions working at all.

[Soron]

Just asked Darkling Wolf over IRC about professions, and it sounds like if we do add this in, he doesn’t want stuff like guns and armor to be available via the starting profession. Sounds like we should stick with civilian professions for now (i.e., people who would be evacuated rather than enlisted to help fight the infection), and only carrying things that they could reasonably have had on their person when evacuated.

[Tankra]

Sounds like we should stick with civilian professions for now (i.e., people who would be evacuated rather than enlisted to help fight the infection), and only carrying things that they could reasonably have had on their person when evacuated.

That’s a fair call. Perhaps once this gets implemented there could be a set of unlockable professions that would consist of people who would have had a role to play in the evacuation process. Perhaps these professions could be unlocked by reaching some rare content that spawns in Military Bunkers and Labs. I could definitely get behind that. Nothing like unlockable material to keep those fingers a-clickin’.

[The_Darkling_Wolf]

Well having a situation where you spawn in a besieged Police Station with some other officers is a great idea, but we’d really need to improve NPCs a lot before anything like that becomes really viable.

[KA101]

Regarding the skill-balancing as it relates to professions: IIRC beginner books only take one to level 3 or so. (Cutting Weapons starts at 1 and goes to 4.) Technical books can go to 6, and Computers/Electronics have specialized textbooks for 8/10 respectively. This suggests that pre-Cata professions might have somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 points in their skills, assuming full overlap with the Cata usage. Top-flight professionals may have the book down pat, but most in a field don’t.

To pick up the example of the Doctor: not all Doctors are trauma responders, so I can understand their having First Aid 1-2. Might be an internist or perhaps an eye/ENT/other non-trauma doc–xe could interpret tests, diagnose conditions, write prescriptions, etc all day. Stanching deep bite wounds and performing surgery, though they may have some of the basics from med school, isn’t their primary skill. (Now, an EMT, on on the other hand…well, there’s good reason why most are probably Z already.)

I’d suggest that depending on the particular skill and the profession, starting with 2-4 ranks might be worth thinking about. A Truck Driver, for instance, probably should have more than one point in Driving, seeing as the job requires driving a Semi or Flatbed all day and with some speed & precision. Yeah, that means that such a driver will start out able to do better if xe has access to a vehicle. Given the condition vehicles start out in, though, I wouldn’t want to immediately saddle up and crash town: Driving skill is situational, and works best in concert with other skills (Mechanics) and specific gear.

(Jimmy Gibbs Jr. probably had at least 5 points in Driving, as well as his car. Lotta good it did him!/L4D2)

Firearms, by comparison, is more universally applicable: projectile-throwers are generally easier to find, and crossbow bolts are easily craftable. Melee doesn’t require any tools to use. Both seem like skills that are more likely to get their professions killed/endangered prior to game start than they are to be evacuated.

[Tankra]

From a realism point of view, I agree with you; it makes more sense for a trucker to start with something like 4-5 Driving. However, from a gameplay perspective, the way the initial points system is balanced, it makes absolutely no sense to spend the 4 necessary build points to get 4 starting skill in Driving. ‘‘Not optimal’’ is the kindest thing I could call that.

But let’s take a step back here. This is the same game that lets me go from being a complete ignoramus to being a master electrician capable of constructing cybernetic implants in around two days given the proper environment and a few drugs. That’s not very realistic either, let’s face it. But it’s fun. You don’t want to actually spend your life in college to get a few post-docs to learn these things when your character will most likely die in the very near future. I think we need the same sort of suspension of disbelief for Professions. Sure, a +1 to a skill might not accurately represent your character’s initial knowledge about a given skill, but given the proposed +1 to effective skill rank implementation, your character will definitely feel better at that particular skill than someone without that specialization. If this is achieved, then the profession has succeeded in its intended goal, as I see it.

The alternative you propose would not only make professions prohibitively expensive, but also easily replaceable by a handy book. ‘‘Oh, so you spent 4 build points to be a Doctor? I just found a book and huddled in that corner for roughly 6 hours. We’re at the same level.’’

Besides, the current build point system already allows you to start with 2 or 4 or even 6 ranks in a given skill, if you’re so inclined. My proposal for Professions is as a ‘little something on the side’ for your character, not a full build template.

P.S. It’s late and I’m not sure whether the tone of this reply is adequate. If it comes off as too forceful, I apologize because that’s not the intent. I’m merely decisively making an argument.

[Iosyn]

Well having a situation where you spawn in a besieged Police Station with some other officers is a great idea, but we’d really need to improve NPCs a lot before anything like that becomes really viable.

I like this.

[u]Rookie cop[/u] – You broke up with an old flame and spent most of the night drinking away your worries before sleeping at a cheap motel. Unfortunately you’ve got a killer hangover and you’re late for the first day of work at the RPD. You attempt to drive to work with the hangover, but there’s a zombie in the back seat and you crash near said police station.

Start with 30x parabellum, a 9mm sidearm, holster and a combat knife. Skills, firearms, handguns, dodge and first aid.
Positives: For some reason, you find more ammo than usual.
Negatives: Drunk driver. For some reason, (probably the drink,) you have a tendancy to crash any wheeled vehicle much more often. Also, crashed vehicles tend to catch fire for some other reason.

[Zordelraak]

How about professions give you some boost, like paramedic would give you 10% more health when using first aid?
Maybe it will give you 2 charges of first aid kit, antibiotics (probably) and info about nearest hospital, what do you think?

[Soron]

Alright, I’ve got barebones profession code available for testing and feedback, available here: https://github.com/ethankaminski/Cataclysm-DDA/tree/professions

The added profession code does break save files and templates, but adding new professions won’t break anything. Also, all the professions are defined in data/raw/professions.json.

So far, I only have support for different starting gear packages, but I’m likely to expand that in the future - particularly if I see particularly compelling lists of professions which would require additional functionality ;).

[Tankra]

Ok so here goes my first draft of these. Remember that you can only ever choose one Profession, and that they’re mandatory. The “regular game” option is the Commoner, who gives no bonuses or penalties. All starting equipment listed under the Professions is in addition to the pocket knife and the cheap lighter than comes standard.

This first group of Professions costs 1 Build Point:

[ul][li]Athlete - +1 effective skill rank in Dodge. Starts with aspirin (50)[/li]
[li]Businessman - +1 effective skill rank in Speech and Barter. Starts with a suit, cigars (5) and a briefcase[sup]1[/sup].[/li]
[li]Cook +1 effective skill rank in Cooking. Starts with a frying pan.[/li]
[li]Construction Worker - +1 effective skill rank in Construction. Starts with a sledgehammer.[/li]
[li]Doctor - +1 effective skill rank in First Aid. Starts with a lab coat and first aid kit (2).[/li]
[li]Electrician - +1 effective skill rank in Electronics. Starts with a screwdriver and a jumpsuit.[/li]
[li]Hacker - +1 effective skill rank in Computers. Starts with two cans of energy drink and a hoodie.[/li]
[li]Mechanic - +1 effective skill rank in Mechanics. Starts with a wrench.[/li]
[li]Outdoorsman - +1 effective skill rank in Survival. Starts with a rolling mat and a hiking backback[sup]2[/sup].[/li]
[li]Trucker - +1 effective skill rank in Driving. Starts with sunglasses and a Top Gear Magazine.[/li]
[li]Teacher - Starts with a beginner skill book or novel of the player’s choice.[/li]
[li]War Veteran - +1 effective skill rank in Firearms. Starts with Prozac (10).[/li][/ul]

Next are the Professions that give you +2 Build Points because of their significant drawbacks:

[ul][li]Drug Addict - Starts strongly addicted to either cocaine, methamphetamine or heroin. Starts with 8 doses of the chosen drug as well as a crack pipe or syringe where applicable.[/li]
[li]Handicapped - Has a -40% speed penalty to movement. Begins with a wheelchair[sup]3[/sup].[/li]
[li]Teenager - Has -10% health. Starts with an MP3 player.[/li][/ul]

Lastly, the professions that give you +1 Build Points due to having a slightly lesser drawback:

[ul][li]Autistic - Automatically fails all Persuasion, Intimidation and Bluff checks[sup]4[/sup].[/li]
[li]Pothead - Starts strongly addicted to marijuana. Starts with 5 doses of marijuana and a bag of chips.[/li]
[li]Terminally Ill - You have been diagnosed with an untreatable disease. You have less than a year to live.[/li]
[li]War Amputee - +1 effective skill rank in Firearms. Has no left arm[sup]5[/sup].[/li][/ul]

[sup]1[/sup] [size=8pt]A briefcase would be a new item that has 60-80 storage and 2 encumberance to the arms. Wearing it would make you unable to wield 2-handed weapons, much like the Fusion Blaster Arm.[/size]
[sup]2[/sup] [size=8pt]A hiking backpack would be like a backpack but with +2 encumberance.[/size]
[sup]3[/sup] [size=8pt]A wheelchair would be a new vehicle whose speed is roughly equal to that of a regular character. They would be craftable with a mechanics skill of 3-4 and two wheels, and would require neither a foot crank, controls or an engine. They would, however, be significantly slower than bicycles.[/size]
[sup]4[/sup] [size=8pt]This might be too obvious of a power player choice. Perhaps it should be omitted from the game until conversations with NPCs are actually meaningful.[/size]
[sup]5[/sup] [size=8pt]Not having a left arm means that you permanently have 0 health in your left arm health bar. Additionally, you can’t use 2-handed weapons as if you had the Fusion Blaster Arm bionic. However, if you manage to find and successfully implant a Fusion Blaster Arm, you take no additional penalties. (Perhaps an Amputee implanting himself with the Blaster Arm would take a penalty, as it is more difficult to do so?)[/size]

I’m open to feedback from everyone about either the balance between the Professions, new Profession suggestions or even just a change to starting equipment that you think would be more fun. Keep in mind that these are only “survivor” Professions, and that as of now we’ve been instructed to not include any Professions that could represent characters that had a hand in the final evacuation attempt or the development of the virus itself (i.e. no scientists or soldiers). I’m of the opinion that these among with many others that would cost 2 or more Build Points to purchase should be added to the game as unlockable content eventually, but that’s for a little later on I guess. For now, if you come up with suggestions, try to keep them as mundane yet entertaining as possible.

[KA101]

[quote=“Tankra, post:14, topic:661”]From a realism point of view, I agree with you; it makes more sense for a trucker to start with something like 4-5 Driving. However, from a gameplay perspective, the way the initial points system is balanced, it makes absolutely no sense to spend the 4 necessary build points to get 4 starting skill in Driving. ‘‘Not optimal’’ is the kindest thing I could call that.

But let’s take a step back here. This is the same game that lets me go from being a complete ignoramus to being a master electrician capable of constructing cybernetic implants in around two days given the proper environment and a few drugs. That’s not very realistic either, let’s face it. But it’s fun. You don’t want to actually spend your life in college to get a few post-docs to learn these things when your character will most likely die in the very near future. I think we need the same sort of suspension of disbelief for Professions. Sure, a +1 to a skill might not accurately represent your character’s initial knowledge about a given skill, but given the proposed +1 to effective skill rank implementation, your character will definitely feel better at that particular skill than someone without that specialization. If this is achieved, then the profession has succeeded in its intended goal, as I see it.

The alternative you propose would not only make professions prohibitively expensive, but also easily replaceable by a handy book. ‘‘Oh, so you spent 4 build points to be a Doctor? I just found a book and huddled in that corner for roughly 6 hours. We’re at the same level.’’

Besides, the current build point system already allows you to start with 2 or 4 or even 6 ranks in a given skill, if you’re so inclined. My proposal for Professions is as a ‘little something on the side’ for your character, not a full build template.

P.S. It’s late and I’m not sure whether the tone of this reply is adequate. If it comes off as too forceful, I apologize because that’s not the intent. I’m merely decisively making an argument.[/quote]
No worries on the tone. Little concerned about the point value pegging.

Last I checked, the First Aid book went to 3, and I was suggesting that a Doctor start with two points of First Aid…which, last I checked, is what the first point in a skill buys: thus, making a Doc would be a cosmetic upgrade to spending the point on a skill. Making a Doctor cost 4 points would suggest quite a few benefits–Fitted Lab Coat at minimum.

Having Profession-only benefits would indeed make them worth more points, at the risk of making balance…kinda touchy.

(If players are charged the build point for a Profession…I’d say that makes them something a little more than a side benefit. Definitely part of the build.)

[kenoxite]

About starting gear.

Assuming the player spawns in a shelter close to where he/she resides, it’d be nice to make one of the houses in the nearest town to be the player’s old home.

The player would spawn with the minimum gear and items related to his/her profession (the stuff that someone would carry in real life, which wouldn’t be that much). More related items and gear would be found in his old home. That house would be unlocked (or locked but the player has the “key”) and marked on the map. It could purposely be placed near the middle of the town to make the access to it more of a challenge.