Petition to modify trait "hoarder"

as it is, it is a negative trait that gives -morale when you are not loaded to max capacity.
but hoarders are not like that!
they start up empty, and try to carry back as much as possible. (i know! i am one :slight_smile:

so my suggestion:
Hoarder becomes a positive trait, that gives morale+ when you are loaded to max capacity and beyond.
Also, it will give morale+ the more stuff you carry. (counted both by weight and by volume)
The formula could be:
morale bonus = ((carried_weight*2+carried_volume)/3)/20 + ((carried_capacity/max_capacity)^6)*10
this means that weight carried is twice as important as volume carried. also that being at max_capacity gives a flat +10 morale in addition to the “carried stuff” bonus.

Some examples:
a player loaded with 50kg @ 100vol will get ((50*2+100)3)/20=+3.33 morale from carried stuff.

also the same player will also get morale if he is near max_capacity:
while at 10% of max_capacity he gets +0.0001,
at 50% he gets +0.15625 (slowly starts rising),
at 75% he gets +1.779 (not bad),
at 100% he gets +10 (nice!)
and he will also get a maximum of ~11 morale if he is over the vol limit by 2.

example 2:
A likely late game survivor carrying 40kg @ 100vol with max_capacity at 130, would get:
((40*2+100)/3)/20=+3 morale from the stuff he is carrying, and
((100/120)^6)*10=+3.34 morale from nearing his max_capacity,
for a total of +6.34 morale, with the possibility of it going above +15 when he is at full load.

example 3:
A likely early-game survivor carrying 5kg @ 20 vol with max_capacity at 30, would get:
((5*2+20)/3)/20=+0.5 morale from the stuff he is carrying, and
((20/30)^6)*10=+0.877 morale, for a total of ~+1.4
but this is normal, since he is not loaded to capacity.

These values seem reasonable, considering that the optimist trait gives a flat +5 to morale.
Do consider that being at (and over) full load can easily kill you in cata. This is the hook of this trait.
soo, what do you think???

PS. I want this trait so that i can RP myself. :wink:
I feel good when bringing stuff to my base, not bad when i’m not (weeell, maybe a little)

PS2. Would it be reasonable for it to be a 0-cost trait, with the formula modified to give -morale when under 75% and +morale when over?

I’m not sold on it, but haven’t been able to parse all the math. May check again later.

For it to be a 0-point trait, the neutral morale point would need to be ‘where you start accruing penalties’, and the more severe the penalties the higher the bonus.
There’s a nice symmetry to that, so I wouldn’t discourage someone implementing it.

I suppose it depends on whether or not this is meant to mimic (to some cartoonish degree) the very real and dysfunctional hoarding impulse that exists.

Like with other psychological abnormalities in the game I don’t think it should be ‘modeled’ either, but some familiarity between the real-world disorder and what we see in the game would probably be appropriate, if indeed that is what the flaw is in reference to.

Compulsive hoarding is not well understood, but it is essentially an anxiety disorder which may be tangentially related to obsessive compulsive disorder. Essentially, the idea of discarding something - even things of very little actual value, reasonable sentimental value, or usefulness - is extremely distressing to them.

To the degree that the game can track and abstract this effect, it seems to be doing a decent job of it. While a hoarder normally fills their home with junk, in the apocalypse, the person themselves is the thing which is loaded with junk. Without a ‘home’ to clutter up, they clutter up their pockets. The notion of throwing away that useless paper wrapper causes anxiety, out of a fear that it may become useful, however unlikely that may be or how unable they are to describe such a situation. Given the environment the character lives in, the fear of being unprepared could very well trigger impulsive hoarding of junk on their person.

The character receiving a negative mood modifier when below a certain threshold is very much a decent abstraction of that effect, and so I like the way it is. It could certainly be modified, but I think its status as a negative trait (which can sometimes have its functionality given the situation) is appropriate.

Anyway, that’s just my take on it.

I’m not in favor of diminishing the gameplay with cons of Hoarding trait, but excelling in it?

Nevermind agreeing with Grin Hyena on the impulse bit, one should never forget that even though its definition is abstact, the mentioned trait declares actual values for a player character in order for him/her to function normally. I dunno, thinking of it right now brings up a question - should a character with Hoarding trait get really mad if a zombie shreds his/her favourite pants to pieces? Or, if this scale is in fact the question, should he/she suffer less penalties for burdening him/herself?

Hoarders are known for their tendency to make just about anything a “collector piece”. Should they suffer a morale penaltly if they spot an item, an addition to their collection, yet fail to claim it to the pile?

The current hoarder mechanic would be better if the penalty was based off of a specific value (150?), instead of less than your current maximum volume. As I see it, these are the main effects:

  1. Hoarders can no longer reduce their anxieties by taking off empty storage items until they’re needed. I think this better reflects the intent of the trait, and also removes some micromanagement.

  2. Hoarders who have more volume than necessary have some wiggle room before taking morale penalties, which means the trait is less annoying if you are playing it the way it’s meant to be played. I think this is good.

  3. Hoarders can’t switch to a low encumbrance, low volume outfit without taking morale penalties. This definitely makes hoarding worse, and probably incompatible with melee combatants. Hoarding currently doesn’t affect your broader strategy very much, and the incompatibility is sensible, so I think it is acceptable.

  4. Hoarders who don’t yet have storage items take unavoidable morale penalties. I think this is acceptable if the penalty is rescaled, and capped at a point where hoarders can endure without taking specific professions to compensate. It does mean that hoarder characters are going to prioritize getting storage above other characters, but I think this is appropriate.

Hoarder should never have positive effects. I don’t think the trait represents actual hoarding very well, but at least it roughly parallels it this way.

You don’t really need a trait to represent a happy collector. Collect good morale items, and use them.

If you wanted to better represent hoarding, you would probably do something like check the items in the player’s immediate surroundings every now and then, and penalize them if they’re not surrounded by a pile of stuff with a lot of nominal value, because they either don’t have a hoard or worry that it isn’t safe in their absence.

how about it adds ‘quests’ to grab a number of a certain item, usually one you tried dropping (like when you drink a can and have auto-drop set)

The best representation I’ve come up with is a morale penalty for dropping anything, with the sole exception of the place the player considers “home”. Unfortunately determining where that should be is a bit problematic, and if it’s a vehicle (which would be totally valid) that’s also a bit complicated to track.

how about the ability to declare a space as yours? like planting a sort of flag that considers the zone it sees as your own? I don’t know anything about the way the game is designed to function though :frowning: if it’s possible, one aspect would be limiting the size of ‘claimed’ area etc, since some would simply lay claim on the whole world. Possibly a way to require inhabiting a zone for a certain period of time, or not inhabiting for a period of time expires it as a home. But it’s all up in the air anyway since people will argue what home is, and differences and all that glarble

possibly a bonus for sleeping in the vicinity of X amount of items? Encouraging the player to sleep in their filth.

“There aren’t enough cans around me, I don’t feel safe!” lol

it would even be neat for the hoarder player to have a fascination with a certain item, or type of item, like collecting as many books as possible (skill or otherwise). Or collecting cans, or scrap electronics, or other such garbage. Even maybe collecting a crafting item where they feel bad for expending it

See… I like the idea, I think it’s being made too complicated.

Not that it’s better, but I would be more in favor of a system like the following :

Carried weight/volume (whichever is preferred) less than 20% of capacity : penalty to morale

Carried weight/volume (again, preference) greater than 80% capacity : bonus to morale

Otherwise, no bonus. No penalty.

Ummm… maybe base the percentage on capable capacity (i.e. weight allowed by strength score), at least for the lower end (so ya can’t avoid the penalty by strippin’ down to the ol’ birthday suit). And… probably round the value up to a whole number. Also, with a system like the above, I would also humbly suggest that it be switched to be a positive trait (since CDDA doesn’t have ‘nuetral’ traits yet) and probably cost one point, maybe two depending on the bonus/penalty. Based on my experience, the only time that I travel ‘light’ is when I’m looting… and I don’t travel light for very long (even with a shopping cart). May also want to distinguish, for this trait, between ‘inventory’ and ‘equipped gear.’

Once ‘bases’ are established, I would be heartily amused to see a ‘corrupted’ version of this trait that appears as a ‘gotta collect them all.’ The character is obliged to pick up every object (of a certain type, specified at random from a list [to make it sort of ‘fair’?]) and transport it to their ‘safe place’ or suffer massive morale penalties. Maybe also at least one or two (depending on the item) on their person at all times. my precious, my precious!

You know, things like refridgerators. Or the light bars from police vehicles. Or disco balls.