On Bloat

Game Talk The Drawing Board
1

[quote=“ejseto, post:13, topic:4939”][quote=“ShadowOfScales, post:1, topic:4939”]Next, simply dump this file: https://www.codeblocks.org/downloads/binaries/ into the folder you extracted the source into (it’ll have .cpp and .h files, among other things).
Open the downloaded Cataclysm_new.cbp[/quote]

I think you linked the wrong file. That’s the codeblocks installer. I assume that was supposed to be a codeblocks project file for Cataclysm 2. If that’s what it was supposed to be, I could certainly use it since the makefile.windows doesn’t seem to work.

I support this definition. There’s only so much you can do with json without the ability to add actual logic, and sometimes less is more. I think putting stuff into json files may have been more trouble than it was worth.[/quote]

Well I have nothing but respect for Kevin and the folks, but putting stuff in JSON broke the hell out of a lot of code. I mean there are whole parts of code that don’t even work now. I took one look at at and kinda balked.

2

Inasmuch as you handled mutcat_cephalopod, I’d love to have a chat sometime.

I’ll point out that it’s real easy to complain about generic Bloat, though. Would suggest that Bloat-complainers be required to identify things that they like that could nevertheless be termed Bloat and should be removed. That seems much more productive.

3

Can you be a bit more specific? Other than NPCs, which haven’t had much love at all, what are these large chunks of code that don’t work?

4

[quote=“KA101, post:2, topic:4993”]Inasmuch as you handled mutcat_cephalopod, I’d love to have a chat sometime.

I’ll point out that it’s real easy to complain about generic Bloat, though. Would suggest that Bloat-complainers be required to identify things that they like that could nevertheless be termed Bloat and should be removed. That seems much more productive.[/quote]

I think the problem is that all of the things that I (and perhaps others) consider bloat started off being perfectly valid. Let’s look at the bow addition since I don’t think the author is still around so it shouldn’t step on anyone’s toes. Back when there were only 2 bows I don’t think anyone would argue that an extra bow or 2 would be fine. But how many did we get? The stuff I consider bloat isn’t without merit; that’s not the problem. The problem is the merit is completely overshadowed by the bloat in going overboard. A little bit of spice enhances the flavor of our food. Too much and it just becomes irritation.

And perhaps the real problem happens when people start competing for the right to add the spices. Everyone wants to get in on it, and we just have way too many chefs in the kitchen. I think from the moment json modding was added to the game, anything added from that point on that was purely json should’ve been made an optional mod. That would’ve pretty much entirely solved the problem of too many chefs all adding spices at once. Remember, we already had people complaining about the “gun porn” even before that point.

5

First off: Isn’t this thread derailing quite a bit? How about a separate thread or one of the dozens that exist already?

I think that definition is dangerous as that means almost everything is going to be ok, since at the very least the creator wants it.

Edit: Ok, thread was now moved. Thanks!

6
Forcing someone to use the tanto == having all characters start with a tanto equipped. You can throw the tanto but another will magically appear in your hand, ready for use. (Dropping it doesn't work.) You can of course retrieve your thrown tanto, too.
warning: statement with no effect
7

[quote=“Uneron, post:5, topic:4993”]First off: Isn’t this thread derailing quite a bit? How about a separate thread or one of the dozens that exist already?

I think that definition is dangerous as that means almost everything is going to be ok, since at the very least the creator wants it.[/quote]

Not wanting to continue the derail, but that does seem to be the standard for most of the item/weapon/stuff additions. The viewpoint of ‘if you don’t like it don’t use it’ seems to be unique to this community and is atrocious game design. Can you imagine if Skyrim had Devil may Cry branded machine guns laying around? You wouldn’t hear Bethesda saying ‘oh if you don’t like them just don’t use them’. Extreme example, but that’s what it feels like sometimes.

This may well get cleaned up with modularization of core content, although I imagine every. single. one. will have people up in arms about modularizing their stuff. Really, it’s just about not having weapons/items in which serve no purpose other than as a vanity/completely niche item. I’m not talking about furry stuff or anything, I’m talking about things like really obscure guns which are almost identical to standard ones or stuff which is way out of the time frame/is super rare IRL appearing everywhere.

8
Can you imagine if Skyrim had Devil may Cry branded machine guns laying around? You wouldn't hear Bethesda saying 'oh if you don't like them just don't use them'. Extreme example, but that's what it feels like sometimes.
Nah. They would say "Hey, check out the new weapons in fallout 4"
9

Relocated from the Other Games thread so as to un-derail; fixed == to =.

[quote=“ejseto, post:4, topic:4993”][quote=“KA101, post:2, topic:4993”]Inasmuch as you handled mutcat_cephalopod, I’d love to have a chat sometime.

I’ll point out that it’s real easy to complain about generic Bloat, though. Would suggest that Bloat-complainers be required to identify things that they like that could nevertheless be termed Bloat and should be removed. That seems much more productive.[/quote]

I think the problem is that all of the things that I (and perhaps others) consider bloat started off being perfectly valid. Let’s look at the bow addition since I don’t think the author is still around so it shouldn’t step on anyone’s toes. Back when there were only 2 bows I don’t think anyone would argue that an extra bow or 2 would be fine. But how many did we get? The stuff I consider bloat isn’t without merit; that’s not the problem. The problem is the merit is completely overshadowed by the bloat in going overboard. A little bit of spice enhances the flavor of our food. Too much and it just becomes irritation.

And perhaps the real problem happens when people start competing for the right to add the spices. Everyone wants to get in on it, and we just have way too many chefs in the kitchen. I think from the moment json modding was added to the game, anything added from that point on that was purely json should’ve been made an optional mod. That would’ve pretty much entirely solved the problem of too many chefs all adding spices at once. Remember, we already had people complaining about the “gun porn” even before that point.[/quote]

OK, “bows” are now Bloat. If you’d like to make that more specific, feel free.

Problem with the soup analogy is that it implies that everyone must use or at least pay attention to everything. I particularly liked the Git git who accused me of forcing people to use the tanto* by pushing HARD to not have its spawn chances reduced.

X-D

Forcing someone to use the tanto != allowing it to spawn in pretty much the same places as the combat knife, at reduced rates.

Forcing someone to use the tanto = having all characters start with a tanto equipped. You can throw the tanto but another will magically appear in your hand, ready for use. (Dropping it doesn’t work.) You can of course retrieve your thrown tanto, too.

[spoiler=YOU WILL USE THE TANTO]Obviously, tantos would replace food, water, and sleep. You would simply merge a tanto or two into your body every so often. This won’t run you out of tantos because every item, furniture, terrain, and critter in Cata is now tanto. The gun tanto store (which I’d previously not paid much attention to, since I don’t shoot that often) has tantos on the racks, behind the counter, and in the tanto-throwing range, where you can throw tantos over counters made entirely out of tantos at tanto-shaped tanto-tossing targets that are also composed of tanto. There is no more end of civilization, and the concepts of light, time, and direction have all been subsumed in the glory of Japanese combat blades.

TANTO: TANTO TANTO TANTO[/spoiler]

*Japanese combat knife, which here is a little faster and weaker than the standard model. Choose wisely.

As I mentioned there: you’re not actually forced to use any particular content. (OK, possible exception: “water”.) If you don’t like a particular item, no need to pay attention to it.

Works for me. You can make it work for you.

-KA101, who defines Bloat as “stuff nobody wants to use/get/be/fight/whatever”

10

[quote=“KA101, post:9, topic:4993”]Relocated from the Other Games thread so as to un-derail; fixed == to =.

[quote=“ejseto, post:4, topic:4993”][quote=“KA101, post:2, topic:4993”]Inasmuch as you handled mutcat_cephalopod, I’d love to have a chat sometime.

I’ll point out that it’s real easy to complain about generic Bloat, though. Would suggest that Bloat-complainers be required to identify things that they like that could nevertheless be termed Bloat and should be removed. That seems much more productive.[/quote]

I think the problem is that all of the things that I (and perhaps others) consider bloat started off being perfectly valid. Let’s look at the bow addition since I don’t think the author is still around so it shouldn’t step on anyone’s toes. Back when there were only 2 bows I don’t think anyone would argue that an extra bow or 2 would be fine. But how many did we get? The stuff I consider bloat isn’t without merit; that’s not the problem. The problem is the merit is completely overshadowed by the bloat in going overboard. A little bit of spice enhances the flavor of our food. Too much and it just becomes irritation.

And perhaps the real problem happens when people start competing for the right to add the spices. Everyone wants to get in on it, and we just have way too many chefs in the kitchen. I think from the moment json modding was added to the game, anything added from that point on that was purely json should’ve been made an optional mod. That would’ve pretty much entirely solved the problem of too many chefs all adding spices at once. Remember, we already had people complaining about the “gun porn” even before that point.[/quote]

OK, “bows” are now Bloat. If you’d like to make that more specific, feel free.

Problem with the soup analogy is that it implies that everyone must use or at least pay attention to everything. I particularly liked the Git git who accused me of forcing people to use the tanto* by pushing HARD to not have its spawn chances reduced.

X-D

Forcing someone to use the tanto != allowing it to spawn in pretty much the same places as the combat knife, at reduced rates.

Forcing someone to use the tanto = having all characters start with a tanto equipped. You can throw the tanto but another will magically appear in your hand, ready for use. (Dropping it doesn’t work.) You can of course retrieve your thrown tanto, too.

[spoiler=YOU WILL USE THE TANTO]Obviously, tantos would replace food, water, and sleep. You would simply merge a tanto or two into your body every so often. This won’t run you out of tantos because every item, furniture, terrain, and critter in Cata is now tanto. The gun tanto store (which I’d previously not paid much attention to, since I don’t shoot that often) has tantos on the racks, behind the counter, and in the tanto-throwing range, where you can throw tantos over counters made entirely out of tantos at tanto-shaped tanto-tossing targets that are also composed of tanto. There is no more end of civilization, and the concepts of light, time, and direction have all been subsumed in the glory of Japanese combat blades.

TANTO: TANTO TANTO TANTO[/spoiler]

*Japanese combat knife, which here is a little faster and weaker than the standard model. Choose wisely.

As I mentioned there: you’re not actually forced to use any particular content. (OK, possible exception: “water”.) If you don’t like a particular item, no need to pay attention to it.

Works for me. You can make it work for you.

-KA101, who defines Bloat as “stuff nobody wants to use/get/be/fight/whatever”[/quote]

THats not really what people mean when they say software Bloat.

11

Can you be a bit more specific? Other than NPCs, which haven’t had much love at all, what are these large chunks of code that don’t work?[/quote]

Well I know just off the top of my head for a fact it broke diseases, or at least a lot of them. There was also some thing I noticed with skills, and items.

Maybe once it’s completed (The conversion to JSON) it will all work again. But right now I can tell it wasn’t finished.

12

Shortbow is bloat.

13

What is the difference between the shortbow and selfbow? I mean if they had different stats sure but I mean they are nearly the same thing, however I would rather have the medevil stuff and flame weapons disable able.

14

Can you be a bit more specific? Other than NPCs, which haven’t had much love at all, what are these large chunks of code that don’t work?[/quote]

Well I know just off the top of my head for a fact it broke diseases, or at least a lot of them. There was also some thing I noticed with skills, and items.

Maybe once it’s completed (The conversion to JSON) it will all work again. But right now I can tell it wasn’t finished.[/quote]
Your fact is incorrect. The disease breakage you’re talking about is a result of the kind of “real”* work people keep insisting isn’t happening. It was broken as part of a refactor and unification of creature handling to get rid of a lot of actual “bloat” in the code. The json things are extremely low impact by design, and generally only break content.

I’d also love for someone to clearly explain what exactly the problem with having a lot of items is.

*This is totally sarcasm. I don’t consider adding content to not be real work, or any less significant than the backend stuff I generally do. More creative types have things they contribute that I can’t do, and I do technical stuff they can’t, specialization is nice.

15

The problem with excessive amounts of items that do the same thing, is that it’s literally just bloat.
I’m all for the additions DarklingWolf’s mod added, and even many that this added, they were new things, things that weren’t in before, or things that were similiar to things in before, but provided additional “tiers” of that item perhaps.

My problem is, that most of the commits I see, are adding new items, and not actual code.
There /were/ kickstarter goals, it feels like they aren’t the priority, we have several devs, who I support their dedication and all, but if your only contributions (90% or higher), is .json modding, which isn’t advanced enough to provide additional functionality to the game at the moment, you should probably either simply balance existing items (rather than adding new ones, thus adding a whole load more to balance).

Kudos to the devs that do contribute actual code though, I support you guys. ^-^
I’d contribute if I had the motivation to do so, so don’t play that card on me please.

16

Again with the name calling, need an explanation WHY it’s a problem.

[quote=“ShadowOfScales, post:15, topic:4993”]My problem is, that most of the commits I see, are adding new items, and not actual code.
There /were/ kickstarter goals, it feels like they aren’t the priority, we have several devs, who I support their dedication and all, but if your only contributions (90% or higher), is .json modding, which isn’t advanced enough to provide additional functionality to the game at the moment, you should probably either simply balance existing items (rather than adding new ones, thus adding a whole load more to balance).[/quote]

  1. The distinction between content and “Actual” code is meaningless, they’re both important. I’d KILL to have acacia come back and make some new buildings. If anything, I’d say that we’re still content-poor.
  2. in order to understand the game well enough to balance things, you have to interact with the game and its systems. If we restricted how people are allowed to contribute to the degree you’re suggesting, we wouldn’t magically get the changes you want, we’d just get no changes at all.
  3. You still haven’t made ANY case for the large variety of items the game has being a bad thing.
17

To my mind, bloat variety of different items is not a bad thing. You like them - use them. You don’t like them - don’t use them. Or stock them in pile and burn them, If you really really hate them - exterminate their very existence via editing game files.

Yes, guns in Skyrim would be weird. But existing of weird guns/weapons/items in a post-apoc grim (and possible little (or not so little) crazy) future… well… it could be there. I, personally, don’t use items that I think as of overpowered or extremely unrealistic or silly. And most of my restrictions are self-made via my vision of my character. I agree that some balance issues might be polished, but it can be made after missing core parts of game would be made. I also agree that attitude “You don’t like - you don’t use it, but it will be present anyway” is kind of not pleasant, but this is all we have. And I am sure that almost every item (including most discussed ones) has its own lovers and haters so that makes add/remove item issue more complex and definitely hard to make pleasant to everyone.

18

Thanks for splitting the thread!

My thoughts on the subject: Item additions that offer an insignificant difference between other, already existing items are what I would define as bloat. For example, the mininuke launcher is something entirely new, providing a unique functionality, a new rifle with a different name but almost exactly the same (slightly different stats, but not enough that it matters) as an existing one would be unnecessary and not really add anything.

The bloat is bad because of a number of reasons. It makes it difficult to balance properly, makes it more awkward for the player (I always have to ‘E’ every gun, even though I played the game for ages) and is often entirely without substance, even less then a Reskin (later has at least a different appearance, something an ASCII display cannot provide).

I am not saying we should to curb the content (would step on a lot of toes there), but merely suggesting adding content more carefully from now on. All new content should always be meaningful.

19

[quote=“Sanarr, post:17, topic:4993”]To my mind, bloat variety of different items is not a bad thing. You like them - use them. You don’t like them - don’t use them. Or stock them in pile and burn them, If you really really hate them - exterminate their very existence via editing game files.

Yes, guns in Skyrim would be weird. But existing of weird guns/weapons/items in a post-apoc grim (and possible little (or not so little) crazy) future… well… it could be there. I, personally, don’t use items that I think as of overpowered or extremely unrealistic or silly. And most of my restrictions are self-made via my vision of my character. I agree that some balance issues might be polished, but it can be made after missing core parts of game would be made. I also agree that attitude “You don’t like - you don’t use it, but it will be present anyway” is kind of not pleasant, but this is all we have. And I am sure that almost every item (including most discussed ones) has its own lovers and haters so that makes add/remove item issue more complex and definitely hard to make pleasant to everyone.[/quote]

That is a very good point.

20

Again with the name calling, need an explanation WHY it’s a problem.[/quote]

The problem for me is the items which have been purposely put in as vanity additions or niche items. It doesn’t look very professional, and unless you ‘get it’ it’s just meaningless clutter. DCSS is the prime example - it used to be filled with in jokes, clutter and vanity additions but that eventually got ripped out and was universally better for it.

More than that though (self/short bow being an example, as well as many other ranged weapons) there are items which are functionally the same. Normal game mechanics (as in what 99% of all games have) is that each item is different in some way, as that saves a lot of confusion. We expect each item to function differently, and when they don’t, it feels like it’s just been put in to be more content for the sake of more content.