On balancing out demideities: CBMs

[iceball3]

The bionics taking up health seems like a rather good way to do it, as, expectedly, the health loss could be considered negligible up until you are geniuinely overloading the body parts with bionics.
This is the reason why bio operators could still function, as their implanted armors and external armors and/or “don’t get hit” tactical mindset as well as whatever else they have at their disposal can fully completely offset even halved max health on each body part, which they wouldn’t even have reached the point of as they ussually only use a handful of bionics catered to their specialties (including what i just mentioned).
10 Points of health doesn’t mean a tremendous amount especially if you aren’t self-aware, and ten points would be quite a pile of bionics at that point.
The afformentioned argument assumes regionalized bionic placement and low thresholds of health reduction.
Perhaps even have some bionics mildly hinder the hidden Health stat instead of body parts? Things that come to mind are Repair Nanobots, Adrenaline Pump, Blood Filter, Extended Digestive System, and the like.

I also suddenly had another idea, what about bionics that increase a body region’s health by a bit, but increase encumbrance there? Explained as implanted redundant and downsizing existing systems, allowing more room for bionics (but also soaking more damage otherwise).

[KA101]

Charging maxHP for bionics would also hurt folks who take the HP-down traits. As is those are a pretty big risk and I see no reason to add more problems to 'em.

[iceball3]

[quote=“KA101, post:22, topic:8665”]Charging maxHP for bionics would also hurt folks who take the HP-down traits. As is those are a pretty big risk and I see no reason to add more problems to 'em.[/quote]Why would someone with a notoriously frail body be a safe receptacle for massive cybernetic modification, short of limb replacements which would likely be better off with their own health stats?

[Synthetic]

[quote=“KA101, post:22, topic:8665”]Charging maxHP for bionics would also hurt folks who take the HP-down traits. As is those are a pretty big risk and I see no reason to add more problems to 'em.[/quote]Why would someone with a notoriously frail body be a safe receptacle for massive cybernetic modification, short of limb replacements which would likely be better off with their own health stats?

Because health isn’t actually a meter ranging from 0-100, that’s just how it is portrayed in Cataclysm. Someone who is frail probably has brittle bones/weak muscles/blood doesn’t clot easily etc. This system works fine for cataclysm because taking damage usually affects all of these. you take blunt trauma to the bones, you bleed more profusely, losing some of your weak muscle mass is more crippling than losing the same percentage of a lot of healthy muscle mass. installing bionics may not affect every aspect of frail health, unlike unintentional bodily harm. Bionics may in fact be beneficial to health. If you have a lot of metal in your arm, then you’re going to take impacts with it easier for example. Any flesh that you are actually removing is just being replaced by something else.

[iceball3]

[quote=“iceball3, post:23, topic:8665”][quote=“KA101, post:22, topic:8665”]Charging maxHP for bionics would also hurt folks who take the HP-down traits. As is those are a pretty big risk and I see no reason to add more problems to 'em.[/quote]Why would someone with a notoriously frail body be a safe receptacle for massive cybernetic modification, short of limb replacements which would likely be better off with their own health stats?

Because health isn’t actually a meter ranging from 0-100, that’s just how it is portrayed in Cataclysm. Someone who is frail probably has brittle bones/weak muscles/blood doesn’t clot easily etc. This system works fine for cataclysm because taking damage usually affects all of these. you take blunt trauma to the bones, you bleed more profusely, losing some of your weak muscle mass is more crippling than losing the same percentage of a lot of healthy muscle mass. installing bionics may not affect every aspect of frail health, unlike unintentional bodily harm. Bionics may in fact be beneficial to health. If you have a lot of metal in your arm, then you’re going to take impacts with it easier for example. Any flesh that you are actually removing is just being replaced by something else.[/quote]In which case, bionics would/should provide armor protection or even have their own health depending on how thourough it is.
Generally, though, there is only so much a bionic can replace without explicitly either encumbering the wearing or completely displacing useful tissue. The biomics that increased health as such would represent actual attempts to alleviate that, yeah.

Hmm, maybe making bionics weigh weight could be a good start for all of this?

[AllisonW]

I could see establishing a baseline of ‘this is how many bionics you can install here/there/wherever safely,’ with bionics only causing your body problems (lost HP or whatever) if you insist on going overboard.

[Muaddib]

I’m violently against nerfing the player when the endgame isn’t even in sight.

[Valpo]

Its not just about nerfing the player .
The system as is now isn t very believable.
A human with enough energy installed to stop time for a whole week shouldn t be possible with the available tech.(look at what the energy storage cbms are made of and you ll see that they aren t that space efficient)
I want the cbms to feel somewhat plausible.

[Muaddib]

Well then, the CBM’s should be restructured by realism. Not by balance. Balance is a horrible master, because reality isn’t balanced.

[Valpo]

Well then, the CBM’s should be restructured by realism. Not by balance. Balance is a horrible master, because reality isn’t balanced.

#I do agree because i see cata as a simulation.

But i doubt that this would be the general view.

[Caconym]

Well then, the CBM’s should be restructured by realism. Not by balance. Balance is a horrible master, because reality isn’t balanced.

Fixing clothing mechanics (Gamebalance,goofyness,etc)

Nobody here actually cares about realism, it’s just a catchphrase to shout when nerfing something and a concept to be tossed aside when it gets in the way of nerfing something.

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A major thing IMO is limit the amount of battery power CBM’s you can install, that way you have to use bionics with more care and consideration instead of having enough power to use them all for a week non-stop with no concern.

Some bionics could possibly stand for removing or placed in a mod (internal furnace and time dilation immediately come to mind as being silly and OP)

[Shoes]

I haven’t read the whole discussion, but as I was reading I was expecting this discussion to go a different way : CBMs can get damaged. That’s one way of getting around the “one time fee” of CBMs. I would think it makes sense that if a hulk smashes you in the chest, that maybe your internal furnace wouldn’t function like it used to. Getting hit in the eyes might scratch or damage those diamond or IR augmentations.

Repairing CBMs could be as easy as having the tools, time and product, pop open the bionics menu, and hit the repair key. It could be as difficult as removing the CBMs and repairing and then reinstalling it.

Perhaps even a new CBM could be installed, a CBM Shielding, which would absord the damage or mitigate it or something (although this is moving away from the goal of having maintainable CBMs). Other CBMs could withstand the abuse, like the military grade CQ combat ones.

I would think programming wise it would be as straightfoward as adding a bodypart to the CBM, a damage tracking integer, some code that damages the CBM when you get hit, and then the repair key in the bionics menu. CBMs could either behave differently while damaged (requires time to code) or they could simply fail to turn on, costing time, or turn off automatically like a misfiring gun, or consume more power, or cause any number of effects that the “failed CBMs” already do, like pain and noise.

[Coolthulhu]

Well then, the CBM’s should be restructured by realism. Not by balance. Balance is a horrible master, because reality isn’t balanced.

Anything but this.
CBMs aren’t realistic. Balancing them by realism is basing dragon’s wing size on physics.

CBMs should get a huge nerf, but it should be a simple (from mechanics point of view) one at first. Even limiting it to hardcoded 1-slot-per-CBM (no power storage in legs, for example) would be good.
Later on we could add CBM sizes (internal furnace has to be bigger than a cranial flashlight), multi-slot CBMs and other fancy stuff.

[Valpo]

it depends on how you define realism.
Ofc you can t have real world realism in dda.
Thats a given by the premise : nether invasion portals etc.
But things beeing kinda koherent is a great stept towards realism.

You saying that the internal furnace should be bigger is based on sense : logicaly (realisticly/kinda) it should be bigger.

So cbms may be fiction but this same fiction should be logical somewhat:

So we got a number of things we put into our body.
Should we be able to shove infinite numbers of the same therein? definatly not. Because its nonsensical. Hence unrealistic.

I hope i suceeded in getting my point across :S

[EkarusRyndren]

Later on we could add CBM sizes (internal furnace has to be bigger than a cranial flashlight), multi-slot CBMs and other fancy stuff.

“Later” is a very, very, very dangerous word here; it tends to turn into “never” quickly when other things come up that are more interesting. I kinda have to side with Muaddib

[quote=“Muaddib, post:27, topic:8665”]I’m violently against nerfing the player when the endgame isn’t even in sight.

[/quote]

[Shoes]

Here’s another area that can enforce a soft cap on CBMs: weight.

All that stuffs gotta go somewhere. Things like diamond corneas wouldn’t weigh much, but battery systems should probably weigh a kg each at least. Then you’ve gotta find some strength enhancing mutagens to help you carry all your batteries… or having augmented muscles, but not as intense as what’s already in the game. Or require that the player use power armor to support his own body.

[Stretop]

CBMs should get a huge nerf, but it should be a simple (from mechanics point of view) one at first.

Exactly. That’s why I propose this system (Max HP reduction): it is simple, it is consistent and it allow (sort of) interactions with mutations (Max-HP-changing ones).

Charging maxHP for bionics would also hurt folks who take the HP-down traits. As is those are a pretty big risk and I see no reason to add more problems to 'em.

Taking the HP-down traits is challenge that players take up willingly. CMB-induced Max HP loss would add to that challenge. It would become part of challenge for players to overcome, not a problem.

installing bionics may not affect every aspect of frail health, unlike unintentional bodily harm.

No. Organic systems do not exist in vacuum, independently from each other. Weak muscules, frail bones, fragile skin - any and all of those are resuilts of systemic disfunctions (improper formations of cardio-vascular, nervous systems, incorrect metabolic paths). And when you add to already constitutionally weak system some additional function - it will crumble from functional overload.

If you have a lot of metal in your arm, then you’re going to take impacts with it easier for example.

No. If you alredy had frail bones - you also have frail joints, and “lot of metal in your arm” will simply transfer the force of impact to your joints.

Any flesh that you are actually removing is just being replaced by something else.

Something else that your organism is not adapted for.

[PoeSalesman]

Something else that your organism is not adapted for.

But conversely, the bionics are designed to integrate with the human body. They wouldn’t cause damage to it in that sense. I really do not see how your physical health, your ability to handle damage and injury to your body, should be reduced by bionics. You have less flesh, but what you do have is not suddenly more frail or weaker, more prone to injury or anything else, so why should your health stat be reduced? It’s simple, but other than the issues with the balance of it that’s been pointed out, it doesn’t make sense.

[EkarusRyndren]

Something else that your organism is not adapted for.

I’m sorry but that reminds me way too much of the Purist’s ending to Deus Ex Human Revolution… XD

[Stretop]

[quote=“Stretop, post:37, topic:8665”]Something else that your organism is not adapted for.

But conversely, the bionics are designed to integrate with the human body. They wouldn’t cause damage to it in that sense.[/quote]
They do not cause damage, they reduce durability through reducing functional redundancy and structural integrity. Do you understand the difference?

I really do not see how your physical health, your ability to handle damage and injury to your body, should be reduced by bionics.

Then, again, you should learn the role of redundancy in engineering and in physiology on living beings.