If we could get a list of mutations that need rebalancing we could start.
For instance, all of the armors can be made in json. Ive went through the list and added basic armor and some new cats to muts. But thats a big list.
Took me over an hours to sort through it the first time.
Ive added basic armors to things, and some acid armor too. was tempted to reduce encumbrance levels, and I did add stamina regen to gills.
But Im not sure I want to do it all alone.
I dont plan to submit this, but it allows us to see the differences clearly.
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/compare/master...pisskop:patch-1
What else.
[quote=âCoolthulhu, post:20, topic:12705â]Iâd like to balance mutations by point costs.
That is, if you have more good mutations than bad ones (weighted by costs), youâd be more likely to receive a bad mutation next. And vice versa, of course.
For an unmutated player, the balance would be 0, favoring low absolute cost mutations.
Base stats could be included in the point cost to balance low-stat-high-trait starts.
Then the bad mutations that ruin slots could be just heavily penalized by huge negative point costs, making them unlikely to happen unless the player had high positive balance. And if they happened, they would make future mutations more likely to be positive.
And vice versa for the really good mutations, of course.
This would allow balancing mutations just by setting a point value for them. While not perfect, thatâs leaps and bounds above what we have now - a pure roulette.[/quote]
We do not have a pure roulette. We can controle which set of mutations will be the pool out of which the rng picks.
Unless you want to mutate by radition or another unsafe variant.
even those prefer to advance your path or regress it.
thats not random.
how do quills or spines work? theyve no category and in left thinking they are rare
One thing Iâd like to see in a re-balance of mutation is every mutation doing something. When I get a mutation like Fey eyes or rough skin thatâs a step along a certain path but has no effect on my character itself it makes me feel like I wasted my mutagen.
One thing Iâd absolutely love is a high-value trait, or possibly a special variety of mutagen, that gives you the ability to influence your mutations with conscious choice. So for example, when you take some mutagen youâre given a choice of 2-4 positive or âmixedâ mutations. When you choose it, unless the mutation you picked has a neutral point cost, you are forced to choose from a similar list of negative mutations, with negative point values roughly equal to the first mutation.
This would allow you influence your characterâs evolution. The potential to minmax is there, but it requires a large initial point investment (or high skill), and itâs more fun and interesting than a roll of the dice. Caves of Qud took a route similar to this, and itâs honestly the best thing about that game by far (though not enough to save it after it went commercial).
Iâd also love it if it were possible to craft a âself mutagenâ using your own blood sample, for use on NPC followers, which pushes them toward YOUR current set of mutations. Here begins the Player Character Master Race! 
A very simple change that could be done very quickly and would help a lot would be just to significantly up the armour values. Last time I checked, even a highly debilitating, top-level, post-threshold armour mutation like the final cephalopod full shell has absolutely pitiful armour values compared to even mid-range armour, let alone end-game stuff.
I'd also love it if it were possible to craft a "self mutagen" using your own blood sample, for use on NPC followers, which pushes them toward YOUR current set of mutations. Here begins the Player Character Master Race! :P
This is a really cool idea!
In order to understand what all the mutation trees bring together Ive got to see them⌠Ill add my overview here.
the process in which I do this:
-Start a new world.
-Spawn in a âdebugâ character. In this case its a lumberjack with a statline of 8, with no skills, and only self aware, psychopath, and scout as traits.
Now I will spawn in 1 character for each tree and debug them a syringe, a backpack, and the mutagen of their choice. It also appears they need at least 1 serum to make the leap into post-thres. Maybe this shouldnt be a req? In any case its not a game-breaker if it is, for the moment all of the serums can spawn under rare conditions, and can all be madeâŚ
I will warn some that Ive made my own adjustments to a few of the traits. Such as savant going to alpha.
Disintigration
Fast Metabolism
Good Hearing
Insomniac
Nasuea
Pretty
Prime
Prime Dexterity
Prime Intelligence
Prime Perception
Prime Strength
Savant
Very Little Sleep
Weak Scent
First up, weak scent can go right out the window. there very little basis for it. Second, I would much, much rather drop the prim intelligence of the guy. He needs weaknesses. And very little sleep can be nerfed to nosleep1 or 2. I added savant, and may have added nausea. Insomniac will stop sleep-healing when coupled with little sleep, and fast metabolism is fair. Actually, it wont be so bad if I cant add some more int nerfs. I dont see why this guys needs them, and Id rather give those to other crittersâŚ
Im picturing alpha more as a return to neaderthal than a supersoldier captain america kinda guy. Supersoldier, yes. Superman, no. Get outta here mary sue.
-ELFAMAN
Bad Back
Chemical Imbalance
Disease Reistant
Extremely Dextrous
Extremely Perceptive
Extremely Smart
Fast Metabolism
Fey
Fey Eyes
Fey Nightsight
Glorious
Good Hearing
High Thirst
Hollow Bones
Infection Resistant
Languorous
Leaves
Parasite Immune
Phelloderm
Pointed Ears
Radioactivity
Savant
Stretchy Limbs
Strong
Tireless
Vomitus
Weakening
Wheat Allergy
Looks like some alpha and plant got in there too. Well, Im okay with wheat allegy (since I did add it), and radioactive is a weird one but okay. Im mostly okay with this. It strikes me as still op but it also strikes me as a workable character with workable flaws.
Well, elfaman is maybe not needing savant but Id be okay with a way to cancel savant with a mutation too.
Acid Blood
Acidproof
Addictive Personality
Bad knees
Cenobite
Chemical Imbalance
Deadened
Disease Resistant
Fast Healer
Flimsy
Forgetful
Genetically Unstable
Heavy sleeper
Infection Immune
Insomniac
Jittery
Lightweight
Metallassomaiphile
Mood Swings
Pain Resistant
Parasite Immune
Posion resistant
Poor hearing
Prototype
Radiogenic
Schizophrenic
Solidly built
Strong
Thin-skinned
Trigger happy
Very Quick pain recovery
Vomitus
I gave him trigger happy, tbf. trigger happy sounds like it would suit an elf. Im happy if youre happy here.
I also gave it bad knees, which I think is a nice touch. Why are all the medical experiments nice?
Badly Deformed
Bark
Chloromorphosis
Disease Immune
Durable
Extremely Ponderous
Flowering
Heavy Sleeper
Lactose Intolerence
Leaves
Meat Intolerence
Plant
Poor Hearing
Rooter
Saprophage
Sunlight Dependent
Thorns
Tough Feet
Very Fast Healer
Very Strong
Vine Sprouter
Well, I did add a few things here too. lacktose intolerent. Im kind of okay with this?
Burrowing
Cannibal
Disease Resistant
Eater of the Dead
Furry
Gourmand
Grotesque
Growling Voice
High Night Vision
Hoarder
Incisors
Infection Resistant
Packmule
Paws
Posion Resistant
Rapid Metabolism
Rat Tail
Ratlike Muzzle
Stainless claws
Substance Tolerance
Survivor
Trigger Happy
Very Light sensitive
Wiry whiskers
Why is it grotesque? Is hoarder too much? Its needing a speed buff, imo. Each mutation should have a specialty. Rats are clearly packing it into stuff, eating crap, and living underground.
Alcohol metabolism
Cannibal
carnivore
Disease immune
Extremely Strong
Full night vision
Infection Resistant
Infrared Vision
Intestional fortitude
Lactose intolerant
Light Eater
Nearsighted
Pain resistant
Parkour expert
Poison Resistant
Quick
Regeneration
Saprovore
Slimy
Solar Sensativity
Storng back
Subterranean
Subterranean build
Subterranean fortitude
Tough
Tough feet
Trogobite
Venomous
Okay. He is strong and stout, and has good mobility despite his bad dex. I added parkour and I think quick. Im okay with this. Hes a tough one, and like this is probably underratted. Not the least because he is basically a vampire.
Animal empathy
Apex predator
Badly Deformed
Beast
Broad Paws
Canine Ears
Carnivore
Claws
Deft
Fleine Eyes
Fluffy Tail
Forgetful
Furry
Hates Fruit
High Adrenaline
High Night vision
Insanely Strong
Junkfood intolerence
Languorous
Light senitive
Lupine Muzzle
Mammal perhomones
Nearsighted
padded Feet
Resilient
Sapiovore
Screamer
Sleepy
smelly
Snarling Voice
Terrifying
Very Fast metabolism
Very Heavy Sleeper
Beastman keeps mutating between animal discord and empathy and between the different animal furs.
beastman is all around a complete package of strength. Im thinking that to help differentiate between the various beasts that beastman should have the cat night vison and maybe less dex. Cats would lack the strength build of beasts and lupines, and lupines would lack the apex traits of beasts but have more speed.
Ursines would need more sleep and maybe less food and would have more hp and the str of the beast, as well as the distinction of being an omnivore. So in short I want to buff beast and make the builds more gamey for the sake of having a reason to have them all. Cattle I feel is distinguished enough from the rest.
I also want to make a few new mutations, ones that grant bonuses to these mutations but not to -more- humanoid ones. Like lungs.
-URSINEMAN
Apex predator
Bad Temper
Badly Deformed
Bear
Broad paes
Carnivore
Claws
Fat Deposits
Growling Voice
Hates Vegetables
Hibernation
Huge
Insanely Strong
Padded Feet
Ponderous
Sapiovore
Shaggy Fur
Smelly
Stubby Tail
TAAANK
Tough
Ursine Ears
Ursine Muzzle
Ursine Vision
Very Heavy Sleeper
Drop the badly deformed, maybe. Maybe tough2, but I want to give that to cattle⌠Hes def stronger than beast. Maybe make it moreso. He is also better amrored too, according to the armor boosts I have given out.
Hates vegatables can go.
Animal Discord
Carnivore
Claws
Deformed
Disorganized
Extremely Strong
Fangs
Fluffy Tail
Gray Fur
Growling Voice
Hates Vegatable
High Night Vision
Howler
Lupine Ears
Lupine muzzle
Padded Feet
Pale Skin
Parkour Expert
Paws
Predator
Strong Scent
Trigger Happy
Very Heavy Sleeper
Wolf
Kept mutating between ugly and deformed and Pretty.
Im okay, as mentioned above, with it having more agility. Less than feline, more than beast.
Another difference Im stabbing after is one of warmth and envio prot.
-Ursine gets most protection. All of the envio, all of the physical, all of the hps.
-Beast get the second most. Cattle dont count for this, but theyd get more than beast.
-Lupine gets less than beast, more envio.
-Feline gets more envio, less physical, more agil.
So I mean total typcasting here, but differences need to be made or we should consider consolidating these somehow.
Carnivore
Extremely Dextrous
Feline
Feline Ears
Feline Eyes
Feline Vision
Good Hearing
Hates Fruits
Light Step
Long Tail
Lynx Fur
Padded Feet
Paws
Predator
Retractable claws
Saber Teeth
Sleek Fur
Snarling Voice
Snout
Strong scent
Ugly
Very Sleepy
Whiskers
Kept mutating between badly deformed, ugly, and pretty. Should have beautiful.
This should have more dexterity, but not parkour per se. Raw dex is fine. wolves having parkour is fine.
Also needs the trait to fall asleep easily and the trait to wake up easily. Forgetful may be nice, idk.
Bad knees
Bovine snout
Canine Ears
Cattle Tail
Deformed
Disease Resistant
Extremely Strong
Furry
Grazer
Herbivore
Hooves
Horns
Huge
Languorous
Mammal Pheromones
Meat Intolerance
Night Vision
Optimist
Pacifist
Smelly
Strong back
TAAANK
Thick Skinned
Tough
Tough Feet
Very Ponderous
The stronked up pacifist. Very much the peaceloving giant. Its doing okay here but maybe some mild digestive issues would flesh it out some more.
I gave it bad knees and optimist.
-ANTMAN
Acid blood
Acidproof
antennae
cannibal
chitinous armor
cold blooded
compound eyes
deformed
dextrous
full night vision
heavy sleeper
infrared vision
insect
insect arms
insect pheromones
insect wings
light eater
light sensitive
mandibles
mouth flaps
parkour expert
poison resistant
quick
smelly
spiked tail
strong
strong back
terrifying
Kept mutating between the stub wings, butterfly wings, and insect wings. Kept mutating between proboscis and mandibles.
I seem to recall them getting a stinger. But maybe spiked tail is blocking it. No biggie, but I should check.
A strong, fast-but-undextrous-prone insect is okay. Id be okay seeing icherblood. Surprised no venoms?
Im going to say that in the future splitting this into two is viable. One antlike and one more generic/scorpionish one. Iknowdonttellmescorpionsarenotinsectsnobdoycaresbykthnx
-SPIDERPERSON
antennae
arachnid arms
carnivore
fleetfooted
folding fangs
full night vision
furred plate
heat dependent
infrared vision
light sensitive
mout flaps
parkour expert
poison resistant
predator
rope webs
sapiovore
strongly venomous
utricating hairs
very dextrous
web diver
web walker
web weaver
Well, its pretty well done. What can I say. maybe more speed, but not really much else. More Thrist?
-OCTOMAN
8 tentacles
bad knees
cephalopod
cephalopod eyes
cephalopod gills
cephalopod vision
deformed
flimsy
heat dependent
insanely dextrous
insanely smart
leg tentacles
mouth flaps
mouth tentacles
roomy shell
slimy
slit nostrils
tentacle bracing
tentacle rakes
thin-skinned
very thirsty
Added in thin skinned, buffed the shell armor and slime, and gave flimsy. I hope they balance out. Also bad knees. Id have to play it to know for sure. Im sure I will eventually.
-LIZARDMAN
bad temper
bulging eyes
cold blooded
carnivore
Extremely strong
fangs
forked tongue
full night vision
hissing voice
infrared vision
large
large talons
light eater
light sensitive
lizard
masochist
nicitating membrane
predator
reptilian eyes
reptilian healing
reptilian ir
reptilian muzzle
resilient
sapiovore
slit nostrils
thick scales
thick tail
thick skinned
very dextrous
weak scent
webbed hands
wheat allergy
Yea, the complaints about it having everyones second tier traits are right. its a jack of all trades. which is fine, but it is likely missing its own umph.
This can do without infrared vision, tbh. my addition here.
Well, maybe full infrared vision is called for. It can do with more healing too? more perception? Venom? Id be okay with it being medicore at all things as long as it did a lot of things.
-BIRDMAN
avian eyes
bad back
bird
bird wings
deft
disorganized
down
extremely dextrous
feathers
gizzard
glass jaw
good hearing
hollow bones
insanely perceptive
large talons
light step
night vision
quick
road runner
woodpecker beak
Kept mutating between beak, woodpecker beak (comabt variant) and hummingbird beak (utility variant).
Ill have to drop disorganized, it looks like. my b.
This is more or less fine. ranged build is ranged.
-RAPTORMAN
animal discord
apex predator
carnivore
deft
extremely perceptive
feathered arms
fleet footed
forked tongue
glass jaw
heat dependent
hissing voice
indefatigable
intestinal fortitude
junkfood intolerence
long fingernails
poison resistant
quick
raptor
raptor tail
reptilian eyes
reptilian ir
sapiovore
saprovore
scales
shouter
slit nostrils
strong
thick skinned
toe talons
ugly
very dextrous
Kept mutating between very fast metabolism and fast metabolism. Kept mutating between heat dependent and nothing.
So he doesnt gain a lot in the way of hp, and only a little in the way of armor. And loses the Powerarmor ability. But he could use more dex and perhaps a little more intellect. The gentlemans raptor.
-CHIMERAMON
Chimeraman1 didnt actually survive 30 serum injections. rip.
achomplished sleeper
acid blood
acidproof
apex predator
bad temper
cannibal
carnivore
chaos
chemical imbalance
club tail
curled horns
deterioration
eater of the dead
extreme metabolism
extremely perceptive
extremely strong
forgetful
full night vision
genetic chaos
gourmand
grotesque
high adrenaline
high thirst
hooves
howler
hyper-meatbolism
indefatigable
infrared vision
large talons
lupine ears
metallassomaiphile
mouth flaps
pain resistant
quick
quills
resiliant
rough skin
saber teeth
sapiovore
saprovore
savant
sleepy
smelly
snarling voice
terrifying
thick skinned
lupine ears
tough feet
unbreakable
very dextrous
wheat allergy
Chimera has too much hunger and thirst and et al, if Im reading the mutation template right. He may get that halved or at least three-quartered. thats not the traits themselves, the template that alters his baseline hunger/thirst/needs before the mutations affect him.
But what else to say? hes a monster who if anything needs more hps.
-SLIMEMAN
acid blood
acidproof
amorphous body
aqueous
chemical imbalance
dextrous
disease immune
distribuited neurology
distribuited senses
genetically unstable
gourmand
grotesque
hollow bones
incopnspicuous
infection resistant
light sensitive
minor radioactivity
omnicelluar
parasite immune
perceptive
poison resistant
pseudolimbs
radiogenic
regeneration
robust genetics
slimy hands
smelly
sores
tough feet
venomous
very fast metabolism
very thirst
viscous
vomitous
webbed hands
Slimeman has, like his brethren above him, no set-in stone mutations. He has those that define him sure, but hes apt to continuously mutate new ones, even some that are counter to his defining traits.
slimeman has a lot of baseline stats, a lot of low armor, some encumbrances, but overall hes an underrated mutation tree. I feel. Id actually like to add a few traits that keep swapping -> the physical resistance and low envio res and one with negative phys res and high envio res.
-FISHYMAN
Aquatic
Bad knees
bulging eyes
deformed
fangs
full night vision
gills
heat dependent
indefatigable
insanely dextrous
lactose intolerance
light eater
nicitating membrane
quick
robust genetics
sleek scales
slimy
smelly
spines
tail fin
very thirsty
webbed hands
Fishyman has a suprising amount of protection from attacks under this system Im working with. Scales are good cut protection and acid protection, and being slimy helps too. spines is enough to hurt what you cant cover, gills is stamina recovery, hes got fatigue for days with his endurance, so hes a decent fighter. Not quite a pushover, as its shaping out to be.
To be honest, it seems like youâve made a lot of these more distinct from each other at the cost of making them even less useful than before.
And making the Alpha an idiot is completely counter to itâs theme. Itâs supposed to represent the next stage of human development. If youâre going to give it a disadvantage, maybe take a cue from Elfa and give it outlandish penalties like Radioactive and Disintegration, representing biology being taxed and stretched in unprecedented ways.
Problem mutations, to me, that arent getting enough love or simply got too much:
-alpha
-chimera
-beast
And secondary concerns, they are within tolerable range but a little more/less couldnt hurt
-raptor
-bird
-feline
-lupine
-ursine
-lizard
-elfa
[quote=âSolusphere, post:31, topic:12705â]To be honest, it seems like youâve made a lot of these more distinct from each other at the cost of making them even less useful than before.
And making the Alpha an idiot is completely counter to itâs theme. Itâs supposed to represent the next stage of human development. If youâre going to give it a disadvantage, maybe take a cue from Elfa and give it outlandish penalties like Radioactive and Disintegration, representing biology being taxed and stretched in unprecedented ways.[/quote]
I expect people dont like alpha being nerfed out. its an OP class. Id prefer it, but I havent even touched it yet. I added all of savant and insomniac.
Sorry, I hope I didnt sound offensive. the whole point of doing this here is to allow people to speak freely.
what about addictive personality to alpha? savant can be purified away and is canceled out by elfa traits.
Savant alone is enough to severely offset all of Alphaâs advantages. Savant is HORRIBLE. If you can make an alpha mutagen, thatâs a permanent -50% to all skill gain other than cooking, which youâve obviously already mastered.
Personally, Iâd consider Medical to be superior to Alpha, mechanically speaking. Alpha is nice because itâs pure benefit, very little downside. Medical makes you immortal, at the cost of irritating penalties that have little bearing on how goddamn immortal you are. Iâd personally be perfectly fine with simply nerfing Alphaâs benefits, to the point that it only grants minor bonuses, like maybe +2 to each stat. The lack of major downsides is itâs defining feature, and the reason itâs so expensive and difficult to make.
Iâd also remove the âset stat to 14â abilities, that let you make a character with extreme dump stats, and rely on Alpha mutagens to fix it for you.
EDIT:
[quote=âpisskop, post:34, topic:12705â]Sorry, I hope I didnt sound offensive. the whole point of doing this here is to allow people to speak freely.
what about addictive personality to alpha? savant can be purified away and is canceled out by elfa traits.[/quote]
No offense taken. I think thatâs a good option. Ultimately, the more fundamentally HUMAN we can make Alphaâs flaws, the better. You could also make a new trait called Vainglorious. Basically the inverse of Stylish, the character gets upset if theyâre not wearing enough fashionable clothing.
Under this proposed system, mutagen will be a level 3-5 cooking skill recipe. Savant will likely hit a combat skill.
I know itâs not useful input insofar as game mechanics, but fwiw I always imagined the Alpha mutation line to be like Khan - all powerful with a shitty attitude.
Yeah, same. Ideally, the biggest flaws with the Alpha should be with their personality. All of the flavor text for the mutation tree shows them to have a pretty clear Ayn Rand attitude toward themselves.
Skhizo Alpha?
Socialite Alpha? You have to talk to people or you get unhappy? Would kind of suck for people playing without NPCs, though.