Mutation category expansion: Game balance derail

Game Talk The Drawing Board
21

And how exactly are you going to logically implement such “non-stacking”? Is your survivor suit’s armor going to suddenly become thinner just because you installed subdermal armor or grew scales?

Why? Why you are always defaulting to “let’s make it impossible”? Why not “let’s make it possible, but tricky, requiring tools, skills, resouces and time”. Do you know, what you are going to get by “this is impossible” approach? Too Awesome To Use - that what.

That would be against the lore. Mutations are XE037-created, and XE037 seems to be perfectly fine with bionics, if bio-operators, shocker, shocker hulk and technician zombies are any indication.

But it is illogical. New corpses for reanimation are not going to to simply appear from nowhere. If you cleared some zone from zeds - it should stay clear. Evolution of zeds where they were not cleared, however…

For what? To collectively die horribly as they are not adapted to our dimension? What purpose can they have in the world that is deadly inhospitable towards them?

And this seems to be more along the lines “mutate or die”. How would carnivorous characters without “Intestinal Fortitude” survive this?

22

This is so wrong for so many reasons… Let me show just one example:
Shaolin Temple is first and foremost a buddhist temple.
And what does buddhism say about it? Diamond Sutra, Chapter 3. The Bodhisattva’s Vow: “The bodhisattvas and mahāsattvas should subdue their thoughts like this: All the different types of sentient beings, whether they be born from eggs, born from a womb, born from moisture or born spontaneously; whether or not they have form; whether they abide in perceptions or no perceptions; or without either perceptions or non-perceptions, I save them by causing them to enter nirvana without remainder.”

Сonclusion: as buddhists those monks should not care about such trivial thing as physical form of their guests. And “social rebuilding” is literally one of the last things any buddhist would care about.

23

And here my take on post-thresh disqualifying folks wasn’t the physical form but the mental: it’s questionable whether some mutcats remain sentient, and others might well wish to undermine the place.

Wev. You’ve got a better way to rein in folks who take Psychopath and Cannibal because they don’t feel like turning off random NPCs, let me know.

24

It’s occurring to me that several of the mutcats–largely the predator-critter ones–effectively grant Psychopath/Cannibal (or at least, eating humans isn’t cannibalism anymore) analogues as post-thresh mutations, which would explain why stability-minded humans would find them problematic for entirely non-superficial reasons. And then there’s the Mycus line, which essentially absorbs the character into an alien faction.

There are mutcats to which this doesn’t apply, though, and even ones that might still qualify as sentient. Perhaps cattle mutants would have an easier time fitting into human society than chimeras, aside from the part where they’re bloody huge. I’m also figuring that Alphas still qualify as humans for social purposes. (Medical mutants I wonder about. I hear some of them get pretty scary-looking post-thresh, but I don’t know that the whole psychopathy thing is part of the package like it is for predator mutants.)

Another thought: lupine mutants might have the whole “predator” thing going on (granted, so do humans, but that’s neither here nor there), but depending upon whether the humans around them are accepting, I imagine they’d have a much easier time functioning socially with humans and not eating them than other predator lines. Given wolves’ strong pack instincts and that these pack instincts can be applied to humans even by wolves that aren’t already part-human, as suggested by humans keeping wolves around for so long they became dogs.

25

I think you misunderstand what creatures buddhism consider to be sentient. I assure you - all mutcats mutants are sentient by buddhist standarts.

How they could do this?

Well if “killing random NPCs” is an issue here… There is one underappreciated feature in this game - kill list. Would it not be simplier to check it for NPCs that survivor already killed? With your approach it is looks like some old anecdote:
(1): Then every man should be considered rapist!
(2): But they did not do it.
(1): But thay have everything they need if they are going to.

Some players take cannibalism so they could use that C.H.U.D.'s meat since they killed it anyway and that corpses that they find in hospital… And that corpses tha were suicidal survivor NPCs that got themselves killed. Yet others take Psyhopath so they could be free of guilt over killing those pesky child-zeds. Why? Because feeling guilt over re-killing of corpse is STUPID. Doubly so - for feeling guilt over specific kind of corpses. No, really, I would have not get “Psychopath” if not for this. I have strong aversion to such sentimental stupidity, and if there were some other way to remove it - I would have taken it.

Also, for mutants there is issue of killing in self-defence. Because those suicidal NPCs, even seeing a Large Chimera with wings, tail, claws - the works, still insisting that they have something to talk about with it. And of course they talk, turn hostle and begin shooting that chimera that had nothing to do with them.

26

There’s a rather large difference between, “we accept and help all living creatures” and “we teach anyone who drops by our secret martial arts”.

27

And how exactly are you going to logically implement such “non-stacking”? Is your survivor suit’s armor going to suddenly become thinner just because you installed subdermal armor or grew scales?[/quote]

Stacking is fine. I’m not suggesting non-stacking, I’m suggesting a stack should get wobbly beyond a certain point as it gets taller.
As to how it’d be implemented, that’s up for discussion. Still, I gave two possible examples which you respond to below.

Why? Why you are always defaulting to “let’s make it impossible”? Why not “let’s make it possible, but tricky, requiring tools, skills, resouces and time”. Do you know, what you are going to get by “this is impossible” approach? Too Awesome To Use - that what.[/quote]

  1. It’s an example of what we could do in order to make a point. It may not be the ideal solution, but it is a possible solution.
  2. Because it’s power armor that was probably built on a billion dollar budget. This should be self-explanatory.
  3. Because it’s linear, vertical progression. Why even stop at power armor? Why not add mechs? Why stop at mechs? Point is, there’s a point where vertical progression has eliminated the challenge entirely. We can have more power stacking, but it should have cost associated with that to balance it. Like I said about stacking power becoming wobbly. Too much power shouldn’t be safe and reliable for a survivor.

That would be against the lore. Mutations are XE037-created, and XE037 seems to be perfectly fine with bionics, if bio-operators, shocker, shocker hulk and technician zombies are any indication.[/quote]

How many bionics can be shoved into your eyes before they are not biological eyes anymore? A robot eye should not gain fey nightsight. Mutations are biological. Bionics have no DNA to mutate. The system could be altered to reflect the idea that you are replacing flesh with machine, which is incompatible with mutation. It would either require a very high number of bionics, or specific kinds of bionics, or both, but it’s another example of horizontal progression.

28

But it is illogical. New corpses for reanimation are not going to to simply appear from nowhere. If you cleared some zone from zeds - it should stay clear. Evolution of zeds where they were not cleared, however…

For what? To collectively die horribly as they are not adapted to our dimension? What purpose can they have in the world that is deadly inhospitable towards them?

And this seems to be more along the lines “mutate or die”. How would carnivorous characters without “Intestinal Fortitude” survive this?[/quote]

Evolving zeds would most likely not affect spawned zeds. Not because lore, but because it’s much easier to tinker with spawn groups than with existing zeds. Lore isn’t a problem, because at least some zombies mutate after reanimation, as implied by existence of hulks.

Aliens could establish terraformed bases, have portals in the center of their camps, just pop in to steal/kill stuff and then go back, invade big fungal growths to stop their spread…
Lore does say that most of the invading aliens were unadapted, not that they can’t adapt. And as evidenced by mi-gos, grecks and grackens, many can survive just fine.

Carnivorous characters are already mutants. And if you pick all the possible intolerances except meat, it should be a challenge to stay alive.
There are plenty of edible corrupted forms, though. Giant insects and spiders, mutant rats, snakes, fish and human-based mutants hiding underground.
Carnivores would slowly switch from farmed pork and hunted deer to flies, giant worms and mutant crayfish. Herbivores would go from acorns to triffid marrow cooked in oil from fluid sacs.

Maybe later you could farm relevant critters. Put mutant roaches in pen, drop some plant food and few corpses, wait a bit then harvest the eggs and/or the young for food.

29

I think we need a “Mutation Category Expansion: Game Difficulty Derail”

30

Of course to be taught martial arts petitioner should pass apprenticeship and accept monastic vows:

  1. Not killing human beings,
  2. Not stealing,
  3. Not lying,
  4. Not committing sexual misconduct (adultery),
  5. Not becoming intoxicated (drugs, alcohol).

And since here we are talking about wonderous things, how about character losing his extraordinary abilities granted by martial arts if he breaks his vows?

Because it's power armor that was probably built on a billion dollar budget.

Wrong. As have been mentioned several times already, power armors are mass-produced and provided to army in stock.

Why not add mechs?

Too much energy and ammunition needed. Also mechs are terribly impractical against anything that can shoot them back: they have enormously high target profiles and therefore constitute an exstremely easy targets. However, mechs can be realistically added to military bases as guards.

A robot eye should not gain fey nightsight. Mutations are biological.

Nope. Mutations are manifestations of XE0037 influence. That is why they can break the laws of genetics. Also, you see not only with your eyes but with your brain as well. And additional functions of sight are explicitly neurological in nature - they are about nerves, not about eyes.

The system could be altered to reflect the idea that you are replacing flesh with machine, which is incompatible with mutation.

But bionics for the most part do not replace flesh - they infuse it. And they infuse mutated flesh just as well.

There are plenty of edible corrupted forms, though.

But those are corrupted, not tainted - they leave non-taited meat.

31

Don’t forget that buddhists have never met mutants in real life.

For all we know if mutants would be real, armies of buddhist monks would go on an anti-mutant crusade the likes hasn’t even been seen in Warhammer 40,000.

Especially if these buddhists are living in a world where they see mutated humans and monsters tearing apart innocent humans everyday. Buddhist writing is filled with heroic monks and martial arts ripping various demons and monsters a new asshole. In fact, making martial arts very “pure human” based would make it a very good balancing device.

Mutants are already too good at HtH combat with all their mutations.

32

@Stretop I have a strong feeling that you either just keep arguing for the sake of arguing, or are one of the “you can’t ever possibly change this for the better” people that seem really common among gamers for some reason. Either way, I outlined my thoughts, everyone(well, few people) has expressed their views, so further discussion on the topic is counterproductive. It’s far beyond me to change half of the game like this, anyway.

33

They have never met demons in real life either. So what?

No. Crusading is really not a buddhist thing. They do not go out of their way to spread wiolence around the world.

Hello? We are in the world of Cataclysm. Last innocent humans died like five days ago =)

But not “because they are demons and monsters”. They did that because that “various demons and monsters” actively did something strongly disagreeable.

At the end of the day martial arts are individualistic thing. Much like mutations. “Pure humans” are, however, collective creatures. So making martial arts very “pure human” is not only illogical, but theme-unfitting as well.

Exactly until they meet real human army with real armor and real weapons. And, by the way, real battlefield tactics.

Never belive your strong feelings. They are irrational.

P.S. For further reading: count how many non-humans are here: “Thus have I heard. Once upon a time the Lord was staying at Râgagriha, on the Gridhrakuta mountain, with a numerous assemblage of monks, twelve hundred monks, all of them Arhats, stainless, free from depravity, self-controlled, thoroughly emancipated in thought and knowledge <…> together with the eight Nâga kings and many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of Nigas in their train, viz. the Nâga king Nanda, the Nâga king Upananda, Sâgara, Vâsuki, Takshaka, Manasvin, Anavatapta, and Utpalaka; further, the four Kinnara kings with many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of followers, viz. the Kinnara king Druma, the Kinnara king Mahâdharma, the Kinnara king Sudharma, and the Kinnara king Dharmadhara; besides, the four divine beings (called) Gandharvakâyikas with many hundred thousand Gandharvas in their suite, viz. the Gandharva Manogña, the Gandharva Manogñasvara, the Gandharva Madhura, and the Gandharva Madhurasvara; further, the four chiefs of the demons followed by many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of demons, viz. the chief of the demons Bali, Kharaskandha, Vemakitri, and Râhu; along with the four Garuda chiefs followed by many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of Garudas, viz. the Garuda chiefs Mahâtegas, Mahâkâya, Mahâpûrna, and Mahârddhiprâpta, and with Agâtasatru, king of Magadha, the son of Vaidehi.”
“Ripping various demons and monsters a new asshole”? Not going to happen.

34

New thread possibly?

35

Alrighty then, I’ve got a little bit of free time to blurt out my opinions on what’s being discussed (though feel that said discussion should get it’s own thread))

For the most part I believe that the early/late game difficulty/reward, unused content, the limiting of characters and production/repair of high-tech items hinges upon the implementation of a working faction system.

*Forget Shaolin temples being like they were/are when nothing else in the cataclysm is ((And we’re stateside for that matter)) The secret martial arts should be handed out at world creation to fitting factions. X are known for their martial artists, etc.
*Factions could be an item sink for the player, in that dumping stockpiled/unwanted items improves their standing (Better equipped, better able to attract more recruits, etc.) and the player’s station within the organization.
*Factions should have their own thoughts on things. Group A hates mutants, group B accepts them–etc. This decides which factions hate each other.
*Joining and building up a faction (As discussed at length in a thread about claiming territory) should run afoul of other factions, attract raiders and as the group captures and maintains critical structures–XEDRA.
*XEDRA and the nether should be the ‘endgame’ one way or another. Deciding to explore the other side or being targeted by power-armor clad commandos all but requires the support of a well-equipped faction.
*Players should of course be able to make their own faction or stage a coup detat with enough support. A group of rag-tag NPC companions founding a new world order is just the sort of thing to keep players occupied with missions and maintenance.

36

The fact that you needed to explain to me why we shouldn’t add mechs means that nothing I am saying is getting through to you and I don’t think I can explain myself any better. I don’t think that anybody else here shares your opinions either, so this conversation is quickly becoming pointless.

37
  1. Please, do not speak or think for others - they are perfectly capable to do this themselves.
  2. Quite to the contrary: conversation is pointless when everyone have the same opinion.

Also,

This problem is going to fix itself as soon, as evolving factions will be implemented. They also going to have access to this vertical progression - survivor will no longer be the only one with access to mutations, CBMs and high-end equipment. And not even one with the best access to it all.

38

Hm, by the way: “psycopathy” trait is not about psycopathy at all: absence of guilt by itself is not enough to diagnose psycopathy and it does not turns someone into some kind of omnicidal maniac. For such person to be diagnosed with psycopathy weak control over urges must also be present. And without such weakness (or even more so - with trait like “addiction resistant”) survivor would be more like schizoid rather than psychopath.

39

Yeah, hence why i put it in quotes.

40

Then I offer to rename “Psychopath” as “Guiltless” and free it from negative undertones.