'Kick' attack to knockback an enemy

I can tell you how many times I have been looting a house/running for my life/ etc and I wanted to close a door to buy myself at least a few turns to regroup/reload/smash a window/etc, and I couldnt do it because the doorway was blocked with an enemy.

I believe that there is already a ‘knockback’ attack assosiated with certain weapons and martial arts, but seriously, ANY SURVIVOR should be able to make a simple front kick to knock back an enemy.

I suggest a ‘Kick’ attack that would do extremely minor damage that scales with strength, and would knockback a single enemy by 1 tile(or more with high enough strength) and allow you to close that door. a 'K’ick would also possibly stun or knockdown with high enough strength.

This could also be used to:

       Smash windows without harming yourself if you happen to be bare handed

       Escape 'Grappler's

       Kick in a door (would have the same function of opening a locked door like with a crowbar, but still allow you to close it again   behind you while still making as much noise as if you had simply smashed the door open. this would let you kick open a locked door to escape something and close the door behind you in the path of whatever was chasing you.

I’m sure that there are many more potential uses for a creatively used 'K’ick.

Thoughts?

EDIT*** I just saw a post from 2014 about a possible ‘Kick’ attack. I don’t know if it’s in the works or not, but I feel like it would be a valid and realistic option.

I approve! +1
I’ve always wanted an attack like this, similar to how Infra Arcana has its kick attack (or had - I haven’t played it in over a year). It basically did what smash does in Cata - except it’s less destructive, more interactive. I believe in a recent update, the kick or whatever it has turned into is used to pulp zed corpses, knock back enemies (and Sparta-kick their Lovecraftian asses back to the hell from whence they came), and, more interestingly, knock down statues on hostile creatures.
Definitely would love to see an offensive interactive [k]ick action with similar effects. Maybe kick a rope and pulley or mechanical winch to quickly close gates while risking damage to the system? Hell, when z-levels become more DF-ey we might even be able to sparta-kick NPC’s down bottomless pits and/or stairs.

A few quick points off hand.

*The sort of kick that’s executed with enough force to knock an opponent prone or send them reeling back most certainly ISN’T the sort of thing an untrained individual can pull off reliably. You’d probably do more to compromise your own balance.

*If anything it would hit harder than a blow from one’s arms, which is again modeled already in game via martial arts.

NOT SAYING I DISAGREE WITH THE SUGGESTION THOUGH

An easier, more agreeable compromise I think would be to have the SMASH action act like a SHOVE when an enemy occupies the chosen tile. Players would then be able to push a foe back (and maybe even prone if they are moved over rubble, low fences, stairs, etc) but also chance getting grabbed or bitten from getting in close to push them.

To summarize:

*Allow players to push living foes back with smash. Balance risk against the utility pushing foes into bottlenecks and hazards grants. Heck, with enough STRENGTH you should be able to get a domino effect going and push columns of zeds back, so long as they’re lined up.

Maybe have it as a move from most martial arts? From experience, research, and having been on the receiving end of many of them, I think front kicks are fairly universal (most, if not all MA’s need a simple, distance-creating strike for beginners and novices) and/because they are rather powerful despite their simplicity. A white belt would be able to execute it decently, using the weight of the body to knock an opponent back or down. That said…

Seems like something out of a family-friendly kids’ action movie. :stuck_out_tongue:
I doubt anyone would be able to do that with more than three (at most), especially with just the arms doing the shoving. Fun idea though.

Seems like something out of a family-friendly kids' action movie. :P I doubt anyone would be able to do that with more than three (at most), especially with just the arms doing the shoving. Fun idea though.

Mutants, Cyborgs. Cyborg-Mutants. The shoving I suggest is throwing your entire body weight into them and directing the force with your arms or shoulder. The sort of full body buffeting we’ve all been able to intuit since we were children. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

Maybe have it as a move from most martial arts? From experience, research, and having been on the receiving end of many of them, I think front kicks are fairly universal (most, if not all MA's need a simple, distance-creating strike for beginners and novices) and/because they are rather powerful despite their simplicity. A white belt would be able to execute it decently, using the weight of the body to knock an opponent back or down.

Kicks require the sort of opening and circumstances that don’t align themselves too often outside of tournaments. Honestly, if they were the better option we’d call them footfights rather than fistfights. I don’t deny that they are powerful tools for a trained fighter, but I think the fact that the styles that use kicks have them proc’ based on a skill influenced chance models the fighter refraining from exposing themselves quite nicely. By the time you’re a 10 in unarmed world-level fighter you’re pulling these stunts off like nothing, kicking zombies through windshields.

Simply put I restate the above that I think even a white belt would have an easier time shoving a zombie off balance and it’s easier to include in all circumstances. (holding a weapon, broken leg, knocked down, riding by on a bicycle) To borrow your own logic, even martial arts that specifically refrain from kicking. (Boxing, wrestling, etc.) teach grappling and pushing. Because you WILL be grabbed and pushed in a fight, especially when fighting groups. (Heck, that’s the reason for suggesting the ability to push zombies back in the first place, isn’t it? :P)

On an unrelated note, I love that vanilla zeds can grab folks now.

OK that makes more sense. I was thinking more along the lines of “strong push” rather than “shoulder ram”.

I’ll stick to my guns on that. Practical MA’s like krav maga usually employ front kicks to the groin or area above the groin, keeping it nice and low (not exposing yourself too much) while also having a nice, tender spot below the point of balance (forgot what it’s actually called) to drive into with your foot. Knocks opponents back a decent bit, if their size allows for it.

Yes, that was a very…unpleasant surprise. I lost an NPC with an arming sword that day. I myself got knocked into a window thanks to a hulk that smacked me while I was grabbed. Got my light survivor boots, suit and duster, destroyed :stuck_out_tongue:
Felt more like gang beatdown than zombie attack. Almost tried to give them my cash cards xD

I like this idea. Kicking zeds out of windows and into pools would be great. Also, this could get extended to kicking furniture and such. Kind of like the grab and pull, but a kick to propel it one space forward instead. Kick a chair or shopping cart at that zombie to make it stumble and then give it a good ol baseball bat to the head.

What about items? I’d love to be able to go and kick stuff that is blocking a door.

Good idea.

How easy would this be to implement? And do people need a coded-in prototype of their suggestion when they make pull requests? Or can I just suggest this on Github without any coding knowledge?

Well, I think the suggestion needs to be fleshed-out a bit more. For example, Should the power of the kick depend strictly on strength, or should player be able to adjust the power to determine how far it goes? Or should the kicked object always move just one square, provided player is strong enough compared to object weight?

no kick please.

or make smash an attack with extra power at the cost of speee and accuracy and a chance of stumbling. this makes deft usefull.

and martial arts more op …

[quote=“pisskop, post:12, topic:13185”]no kick please.

or make smash an attack with extra power at the cost of speee and accuracy and a chance of stumbling. this makes deft usefull.

and martial arts more op …[/quote]

You’re not providing any counter arguments as to why the move shouldn’t be implemented. This has nothing to do with martial arts; from my understanding of it people simply want to have more options and more control over their interaction with the environment. It’s yet another tool that assists them in repelling/slowing attackers down. You could kick furniture down to block pathways, kick doors open if you can’t pry them (less useful, smash works in a similar fashion), kick obstacles out of the way so you could close doors with more ease etc. A more offensive approach could be taken too, regardless of unarmed/martial skill - kicking foes into pits, into pools of water, into acid, into fire, out of windows and more. Panic-kicking active grenades farther at the expense of accuracy?

Kicks are useful in many scenarios. I’m completely in favor of them having that kind of functionality. I also don’t mind (s)mash being used as an alternate kick - you’ll just have to configure it so the game doesn’t mistake your intention to kick a zombie away for pulping the corpse beneath it or smashing the furniture it momentarily crawled upon.

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Kick

we were all thinking it

[quote=“pisskop, post:14, topic:13185”]https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Kick

we were all thinking it[/quote]

Cool. Where’s the counter argument? All I see is you complaining about martial arts being OP. This move has nothing to do with them, and that’s supported by your link (par from the one line about kicking giving bonuses [damage, I’m assuming?] to martial artists, which is negligible seeing how much functionality the move has regardless of such training).

Lol

TooTryHard is tootryhard

why do you want a kick attack? do you have any clue how useful a kick in combat is to the average joe?

Not very. Feet are things we kind of use to keep our balance and run with. If you start flailing around with them untrained youll only A: hurt yourself or B: trip and fall.

And against a horde of zeds? theyd knock you down. and nom you. Its rollerskate levels of hilarity. Lollerskates

P:

AND

andandand

Lets not get into a discussion of how encumbrance would affect kicking.

I got the same reasons for wanting this as KliPeH. More interaction with the environment, maybe increasing the need to strategize where you position yourself, and providing you more ways to get in a pinch, should you find yourself surrounded or cornered. And a way to kick items away from doorframes, and small vehicles/furniture into zed.

[quote=“pisskop, post:16, topic:13185”]Not very. Feet are things we kind of use to keep our balance and run with. If you start flailing around with them untrained youll only A: hurt yourself or B: trip and fall.

And against a horde of zeds? theyd knock you down. and nom you. Its rollerskate levels of hilarity. Lollerskates[/quote]
IMO, these are reasons FOR a kick attack, +1 failkick making you fall down and maybe get stunned.

Anyways I would support kicking objects and furniture as being useful by itself, even if trying to kick a zombie away might get you horribly murdered at 0 unarmed skill.

Be better to generalize it to ‘brutal attack’.

We could have 1 of 2 flavors:

  • an attack more designed to knock things down/away than to do damage.
  • a ‘strong attack’ that does more damage with the chance to do that same.

[quote=“pisskop, post:16, topic:13185”]Lol

TooTryHard is tootryhard[/quote]

Probably one of the more idiotic remarks I’ve had the displeasure of reading on the forum so far. This is what happens when you try to insult someone but don’t have the mental capacity to do it properly. Keep trying to undermine my argument with personal attacks, see how far that gets you.

[quote=“pisskop, post:19, topic:13185”]Be better to generalize it to ‘brutal attack’.

We could have 1 of 2 flavors:

  • an attack more designed to knock things down/away than to do damage.
  • a ‘strong attack’ that does more damage with the chance to do that same.[/quote]

What I want is a kick. I don’t want a kick attack. I don’t care whether kicking does damage or not. I don’t want it to be masked under a regular melee attack either, as a part of a martial art of some sort, a point you continuously seem to miss. My vision of a kick in-game is exactly like a §ush move executed on your friendly companions. It can do, like, 3 damage, just so there’s some impact on whoever you kicked, but that’s not necessary. Such an input would have its own key (say, ‘k’), and essentially let you forcefully move an entity directly into the tile behind it - that way you have control over which tile it stumble into and can form a plan accordingly. This can either be changed and function similarly to the way §ushing currently works with NPC companions, as a nerf - let RNG choose 1 out of 3 opposite directions and move them that way - or kept “accurate” so it can be combined with a little bit of thought and result in a more effective takedown of an enemy.

I’d prefer it if it were to stay accurate, honestly. I don’t want chance to maybe kick the zombie into the pit or maybe kick it into the grassy dirt tile adjacent to it. Still, that’s up for debate. Now, of course this will rely on STR/DEX, and measured against your opponent’s stats/capabilities. Missing could make you stumble/skip a turn/damage you/lose you precious movement points, like Weyrling suggested. Attempting a kick could take a considerable chunk of your stamina out too, if you want to balance it against regular melee attacks that stumble enemies backwards. I feel encumbrance should only affect the time it takes you to perform the kick, but otherwise keep the damage/shove distance unchanged. Maybe have encumbrance affect the amount of stamina the action uses? Again, up for debate.

A kick move has lots of potential. Most of us aren’t even talking about its use as an offensive combat move, a replacement to punching or swinging a bat at your opponent’s face. Its uses will be different to “eliminate the threat right here right now” and to a main “damage-dealer” action. I don’t know if you’ll be getting any other uses out of it, as I’m not very creative in that regard, but what I do know is that the uses we already found for it could very well justify adding it into the game, even if masked under one of the other actions we do have right now - (s)mash, or (e)xamine => §ush, for example.