wow it’s almost like using gun mods to drop dispersion really helps. :V
Lol yeah it really does. I had a bunch of mods on my crossbow in an earlier game. I forgot to add any in a new game, and didn’t realize it, and was missing more often than not.
The current formula very heavily penalizes using “natural” gun setups: anything less tacticool than a christmas tree spray-painted black will only be useful for shooting the broad side of the barn. From the inside. After aiming.
Under current system, it doesn’t make much sense to compensate for one problem by fixing the other. If you want to use guns, you need to be great at it and use a great, modded gun. Otherwise you are better off just whacking things with the gun.
Forget all the cool movie ideas such as person with gun being more dangerous than one without. You need military training to effectively use a pistol at any range - including point blank.
But when you do stack all the things to the max, you get to pick things off from the other side of the bubble, headshotting every time.
Pity, because the old formula handled it very well. You could pick a fine factory-made rifle and shoot things with it without first replacing half of it with superior replacements hand-crafted from smashed vehicle bits.
Reminds me of the copypasta (although in current DDA it’s inverted):
[spoiler]WHAT IN FUCK IS DONE TO THIS POOR RIFLE? STUPID HICK AMERICAN WITH TEN GALLON HAT AND GIANT PICKUP TRUCK LOOKS AT PERFECTLY FINE SIMONOV KARBIN AND SAYS “NO, RIFLE NEED MORE DUMB SHIT ON IT”?
WHAT IS REASON FOR PISTOL GRIP? IF YOU NEED TO FIRE FROM HIP IN EMERGENCY, NOW HAND IS TWISTED INTO PAINFUL ANGLE AND YOU MISS EVERY ENEMY! LOOK AT WRONG ANGLE OF BAYONET! LOOK AT CHEAP PLASTIC MAGAZINE THAT FEEDS CARTRIDGE LIKE CONSTANTLY JAMMING PEZ CANDY BOX! WHERE DID CLEANING STICK GO?
I HEAR OF 922 LAW IN AMERICA. ADDING PISTOL GRIP TO WEAPON MEANS YOU CHANGE OTHER PARTS. WHAT ELSE YOU FUCK? YOU PUT NEW BOLT EDIFICE? HOW ABOUT BAD FIT RECEIVER COVER FOR CHEAP SCOPE TO SHOW OFF AT HICK PARTY AND NEVER HIT LARGEST SIDE OF BARN?
SURE, IS ONLY YUGOSLAV COPY TYPE BUT IS STILL PROUD DESIGN OF SERGEI SIMONOV. THIS IS LIKE SENDING HIM BIRTHDAY CARD WITH SEVERED OFF THUMB OF DAUGHTER IN ENVELOPE. “HAPPY BIRTHDAY SERGEI! I PISS ON ALL YOU CREATE!” LARGE MOUND FORMS OVER SIMONOV’S GRAVE BY CONSTANT TUMBLING OF HIS ANGRY CORPSE. IS FAULT OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
RIFLE WAS FINE BEFORE YOU FUCK IT. NOW IS TRASH. MAYBE YOU CHECK IN GARAGE AND ORIGINAL BOLT EDIFICE AND WOOD ARE STILL THERE. MAYBE IS NOT TOO LATE TO KEEP RIFLE SOMETHING NOT SHAMEFUL TO TAKE TO FIRING RANGE. TAKE SHIT OF GOAT AWAY AND COULD STILL BE GOOD WEAPON. [/spoiler]
Super long range shooting doesn’t seem to work as well, though.
Like, 60 tiles away, Barrett modded to the max, 16 rifles and 20 marksmanship - still takes like double digits of .50 BMG to hit a turret, or anything for that matter.
That said, 40 tiles and less is good enough.
Why not revert to the old formula?
i think guns should be fixed, at least somewhat, before the next version is released, because they are often an important “OH SHIT” button for new characters, especially new players, an old player can figure out how to get out of most situations without a gun, a new one cannot.
Oh hey I just made a thread about this, but it was about guns being kinda shit in general. Not high enough damage output considering how they have limited use. Low range in a lot of cases.
Maximum range is perfectly fine, the problem is that you need godly stats to have non-shit accuracy at maximum range with any gun.
Why not revert to the old formula?[/quote]
Really, why not?
Fun thing that it will be revert of the revert.
The starting police officer gun has like 14-16 tiles of range. That’s pitiful. Not even in terms of just realism in which it’s disgusting but in terms of gameplay it’s like the dude is a house away at best for your max absolute range. Why even is there such a weird max range? Does the bullet just hit the ground at that? Am I using a squirt gun? The only weapons I can remember picking up to have range that even goes out of your default field of view is like… sniper rifles. That I remember recently, at least, I stopped using guns all together once I realized it’s much better to just play melee.
So you’re basing it all on on-paper numbers that do not translate into anything meaningful in terms of gameplay?
That would explain why you consider the 14 tile range to be “pitiful” and expect sniper rifles to fire further than the game simulation goes.
The simulation of guns in the game has multiple serious problems, but max range being too low isn’t a problem. If anything, it’s generally too high and blurs the distinction between guns, getting rid of a degree of freedom and reducing all meaningful variation to damage, accuracy and availability (of gun, ammo etc.).
[quote=“Firestorm_01, post:49, topic:13779”]Really, why not?
Fun thing that it will be revert of the revert.[/quote]
I think is better to release a stable with viable guns, even is OP, than what we have now.
I’d suggest nerfing gunshot noise if the 60 cap is staying permanently.
[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:51, topic:13779”]So you’re basing it all on on-paper numbers that do not translate into anything meaningful in terms of gameplay?
That would explain why you consider the 14 tile range to be “pitiful” and expect sniper rifles to fire further than the game simulation goes.
The simulation of guns in the game has multiple serious problems, but max range being too low isn’t a problem. If anything, it’s generally too high and blurs the distinction between guns, getting rid of a degree of freedom and reducing all meaningful variation to damage, accuracy and availability (of gun, ammo etc.).[/quote]
I literally explained in the post what the problem was, a zombie is like a house away at best before you can do anything. They aren’t long range enough to fit the whole ‘i can kill without getting too close’ thing. And for the most part I have to wait and steady my aim the moment they get into max range to get a good shot which means they’ll get close and I may not even kill them before they’re already closest. That’s more an accuracy/damage issue, I know you might say, but they work together to make the whole thing worse. I mean shit shocker zombies can have similar ranges so why even bother with guns. If you’re going to take a hit anyway you might as well just go melee, you’ll kill it faster. What on earth do you mean ‘on paper numbers that mean nothing in gameplay’? Lower range means you have to get closer… What part of that doesn’t translate into gameplay?
Sounds like a bunch of words to me.
Did you really just say your freedom is limited by the range of guns. What the heck is anything. What even is that next point. What is anything anymore.
And how does… how does that blur the distinction between guns? Guns can still have different ranges I don’t see how just not having shit 14 tile range is a thing that I shouldn’t want?
Also what even is that second sentence it’s really confusing. I said sniper rifles do have that range, it’s not out of range of the simulation?
[quote=“PiCroft, post:6, topic:13779”][quote=“Kevin Granade, post:2, topic:13779”]Are you aiming? (Spending time settling your aim) or are you repeatedly firing with no break in between?
If you’re firing continuously and have low skills, this is expected, if not, please describe your actions in more detail. Snap shots vs aimed shots? Guns used? Pain and/or encumbrance?[/quote]
In the case of pistols, I’m not aiming but in the past it wasn’t necessary to aim to hit a target at point blank with my first couple of shots. Same with shotguns, although shotguns seem to have better accuracy than pistols at point blank.
I understand that firing wildly and continuously should have severe accuracy penalties, but with pistols I’m missing on first 2-3 shots every time guaranteed at point blank where previously this is only happened with skeletons specifically because the bullets passed through them. Nothing I do is increasing my marksmanship either so I’m stuck in a chicken and egg scenario. I can’t hit anything cos my stats are low and I can’t raise my stats because I can’t hit anything.[/quote]
All I can think is like…are your eyes super encumbered for some reason? Because this is just not the case in my game. I agree that around the ten tile range rifles are crappier than they should be. But pistols and shotguns are very reliable up close.
If you talking about hordes then I should say that now hordes not so attracted with gunshot noise as it was year ago. Now it should be manageable.
Also even if horde may hear even then there is no guarantee that it will not lost interest to you if you will be quiet for some time. And also there is always chance that horde simply ignore your shot - there are some random rolls involved.
The part where you’re deriving it from what you would do, not what you can actually do in the game.
Guns with range 14 are not usable at that range, except for the stupidly accurate ones. Actual in-game ranges are closer to 5 or so, except for the last few levels of ranged skill, where they “explode” (because ranged formula is terrible).
Your ideas would make sense if the ranged accuracy formula did not have that division by range in it, but unfortunately it does, which makes maximum range meaningless except for pimped up “endgame” god characters.
Did you really just say your freedom is limited by the range of guns.
Degree of freedom. Mathematical/engineering term, used as a figure of speech here. Basically the same thing as “dimension”, except not spatial, but dimension in “space of guns”.
Currently gun ranges are mostly meaningless because you still need exceptional accuracy to reach even the bad max ranges. This means that even though max ranges exist, they are very strongly tied to real ranges, to the point where they don’t matter much.
So, in other words, degree of freedom to the system is lost: you can change the max range of guns all you want, but it won’t cause the guns to be usable at longer ranges in actual game.
And for the most part I have to wait and steady my aim the moment they get into max range
Now that’s a point. This could probably be fixed somehow without reworking the whole accuracy system.
Now, reworking accuracy system would be a great idea, but let’s just say it’s not up to me and not because I don’t want to do it (I do).
Why not revert it to the state it was before?
I mean is a milestone for 0.D and all that.
You know someone is bound to ask you why not. And that someone is me 
You already described in detail how it should work.
If you have the time, what’s stopping you from fixing it?
[quote=“Alec White, post:58, topic:13779”]Why not revert it to the state it was before?
If you have the time, what’s stopping you from fixing it?[/quote]
Project hierarchy.
I merged the changes the fixed the system back then. Now those got reverted - and the revert self merged.
Overruling like that is a rather strong suggestion that opinions of others do not really matter here.
So here I can only do what everyone on the forums can do: complain, show massive holes by pure math and by example, explain how to fix it and why like that, point to almost entirely one-sided disapproval of the current system, hope for the best.
But expect the worst, because the development is not a democracy.
Maybe I’m missing something, but my 10-dex 10-perc characters don’t seem to have much trouble hitting things with archery-based weapons from safe ranges (i.e. you can kill pretty much any zombie without being hit unless it’s a shocker or a smoker).
What’s the catch?