Fishing Hooks = OP

[PoeSalesman]

[quote=“Binky, post:40, topic:5547”]That would be true if there was a hard cap or if DDA had a scarcity of materials.

As it’s a soft cap, you shouldn’t be in a situation where you’re having to make stuff you don’t want just to see improvement and materials are so abundant that you’re only going to be really having to search for high level stuff that was rare enough anyway. It just means you can’t reuse the same objects over and over.

Also, the way crafting works in the game, you usually want to keep on making higher tier versions of what you already have. Admittedly there might be some things you make tons of over the course of the game (bolts for instance) and they will eventually stop giving you xp, but they will stop rust. If we find the cap is too low or whatever, that can be changed to give more leeway, although I think it’s pretty perfect as is.

I guess the main reason why I think this is must is because it’s so completely common sense that it seems awkward not to have it in. It also allows a much better level of balance, as we can now go forward knowing that players can’t just grind everything up to max in their starting shelter.[/quote]

The first part just plain isn’t true for some skills. Like electronics, look at that recipe list and tell me how many of the early ones would be useful and in the bulk amount needed to grind the skill. I think you can only make batteries for skill gain up to level four with this change. Another skill with that problem ties into the second thing you said as well. Tailoring. You’re not going to be upgrading your clothing all that often. At most you’ll probably only have two sets of gear you keep around (really looking forward to underwater areas though), especially since all the good body armor you can make is mid-high level only. You’ll just be repairing things when they get a scratch more often than not, and looting some dead guy’s house for his shirt the rest of the time. If you have any real armor, you probably got it from a dead soldier or a quick bunker raid before you can make a survivor suit.

It’s common sense, but play wise it’s incredibly tedious with some of the skills.

[kevin.granade]

FYI, due to the wacky title I missed this discussion until it was substantively over.
just a few points:
Since practice and training have been split for a while now, crafting something under your cap resets the rust counter and burns no focus.
To everyone saying realism requires less practice… seriously? If it were remotely realistic I’d put practice times at dozens to hundreds of hours per level (except the first few, more like 30min for that 1st level).
regarding the scenario where you really want to be able to craft some particular thing, it sounds like what you want is to work your way though some progressively harder textbooks to raise your skill rather than grinding crafting things you don’t want, why isn’t that an option?

[PoeSalesman]

regarding the scenario where you really want to be able to craft some particular thing, it sounds like what you want is to work your way though some progressively harder textbooks to raise your skill rather than grinding crafting things you don’t want, why isn’t that an option?

Mainly because finding those textbooks or even a library building at all is highly random, so often times you’re stuck between savescumming a nearby library or building hundreds of lightstrips, which is secondarily reliant on another random shop spawn, though less heavily.

[halberdsturgeon]

Explore. Mansions are easy sources of books as well. I haven’t had a great deal of difficulty finding a full complement of skill books in the latest stable release.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

Er, hate to break it to you, but you would’ve had to do the “hundreds of lightstrips” thing either way - there is no other way to start on your electronics without a textbook, just disassemble stuff and build lightstrips. The cap only kicks in to stop you from going beyond level 1 with lightstrips - at which point you’ll be crafting flashlights.

[PoeSalesman]

Er, hate to break it to you, but you would’ve had to do the “hundreds of lightstrips” thing either way - there is no other way to start on your electronics without a textbook, just disassemble stuff and build lightstrips. The cap only kicks in to stop you from going beyond level 1 with lightstrips - at which point you’ll be crafting flashlights.

The process is made all the more tedious, then, in having to search for rarer components to make rarer junk you don’t want.

[Let_it_end_in_hellfi]

Hopefully this change will draw attention to the fact that grind-to-learn (and grind-to-maintain) is not a particularly fun mechanic and help create a better one.

I think the proper way to remove the grind is to remove the crafting skills entirely (from the player viewpoint, they would still need to exist codewise) and use recipe knowledge to determine what you can and cannot craft. Buying skills at character creation would just start you out with all recipes below or equal to your skill level (applies to professions too, of course). Two main problems that I’m not sure what the best way to handle is: 1. Recipes that are only learned by levelling the skill (the obvious solution is to make them a book recipe but that doesn’t really make sense for a lot of them) and 2. Skills that are primarily crafting skills but also have some other use (e.g. electronics is also used for bionics and mechanics for vehicles). Computers skill could replace electronics for bionics, I guess (though computer skill isn’t that great either in design, at least grinding it is somewhat dangerous) or use straight dex/int stat checks.

Ideally this would remove skill grinding entirely and make purchasing crafting skills at character gen (flavoured as prior knowledge) more useful, since you would start with recipes to use them on.

[Binky]

I don’t like the idea of getting rid of being able to level up by using skills/practising - as has been mentioned, always having to find books can get tedious.

At the moment I think it’s pretty perfect, you can level up by practising and using skills but you can’t just grind first level constructions - you have to experiment and try new things. Books offer a ‘quicker’ option if you find them, and they’re necessary for some more specific recipes.

I feel getting rid of that would severely hamper the feeling of ‘growing’ your character, and I feel that if people start to feel that they can’t advance without having to build stuff they don’t want then that either points to a need for more/different recipes at all stages, or a need for further balancing of the cap.

I think it’s pretty perfect though.

[PoeSalesman]

Yeah, I don’t think getting rid of skills or skill training is the way to go, all things said I really do like the sense of progress, and dealing with books as the only way isn’t good either.

I feel that if people start to feel that they can’t advance without having to build stuff they don’t want then that either points to a need for more/different recipes at all stages, or a need for further balancing of the cap.

I actually agree with this too, but I didn’t bring it up because what to do specifically didn’t come to mind. I don’t know what recipes electronics could have that would be both useful and not repetitive to get skills up. Tailoring could maybe stand some better low tier body armor you can make, maybe something cloth based and low encumbrance since melee types get less good choices, especially at low skill level. Though you still would only need to make one or two.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

Electronics could have quite a lot of things, actually, but for the most part you are going to get better fastest by disassembling existing electronics. There are a great many things that are currently missing, that you could disassemble. I look at the array of stuff I’ve got around my room alone, and I see a telephone, a cellphone, a TV, a printer, a scanner, a desk fan, a radiator, a veloergometer, a graphics tablet, a tablet PC, a laptop, a router, an RC helicopter, a rechargeable battery dock, a pedometer, various computer peripherals (at least two mice and two keyboards) - that’s in addition to stuff inside the various drawers, which include an old synthesizer, two gamepads, a flight stick, a clothes steamer, a pair of headphones, two modems, more old cellphone chargers than I can shake a ten foot pole at, and enough various cables and connection wires to make a rope ladder down from the eighth floor I live on. I doubt my room can be taken as average, but this is just one room, and I already see a great many things that just don’t exist in Cataclysm that’d make great practice for your Electronics skill if you disassembled them.

[PoeSalesman]

Electronics could have quite a lot of things, actually, but for the most part you are going to get better fastest by disassembling existing electronics. There are a great many things that are currently missing, that you could disassemble. I look at the array of stuff I’ve got around my room alone, and I see a telephone, a cellphone, a TV, a printer, a scanner, a desk fan, a radiator, a veloergometer, a graphics tablet, a tablet PC, a laptop, a router, an RC helicopter, a rechargeable battery dock, a pedometer, various computer peripherals (at least two mice and two keyboards) - that’s in addition to stuff inside the various drawers, which include an old synthesizer, two gamepads, a flight stick, a clothes steamer, a pair of headphones, two modems, more old cellphone chargers than I can shake a ten foot pole at, and enough various cables and connection wires to make a rope ladder down from the eighth floor I live on. I doubt my room can be taken as average, but this is just one room, and I already see a great many things that just don’t exist in Cataclysm that’d make great practice for your Electronics skill if you disassembled them.

Disassembly, though, has the grinding issue, and results in piles and piles of components you probably have no or little use for.

[stone94]

I look at the array of stuff I’ve got around my room alone, and I see a telephone, a cellphone, a TV, a printer, a scanner, a desk fan, a radiator, a veloergometer, a graphics tablet, a tablet PC, a laptop, a router, an RC helicopter, a rechargeable battery dock, a pedometer, various computer peripherals (at least two mice and two keyboards) - that’s in addition to stuff inside the various drawers, which include an old synthesizer, two gamepads, a flight stick, a clothes steamer, a pair of headphones, two modems, more old cellphone chargers than I can shake a ten foot pole at, and enough various cables and connection wires to make a rope ladder down from the eighth floor I live on.

Hoarder jk i detest the idea of not being able to grind skills when i feel like it. the cataclysms not all sunshines and rainbows, well unless they were trying to eat you to!

[Sean_Mirrsen]

[quote=“PoeSalesman, post:51, topic:5547”]Disassembly, though, has the grinding issue, and results in piles and piles of components you probably have no or little use for.[/quote]It’s a realistic kind of grind - for the most part, disassembling things is going to be your only source of high-difficulty tasks until you get your skills to a point where you can actually re-assemble the things you’ve disassembled. From there, you start crafting those things. Electronics is the kind of stuff you actually have to learn, there aren’t that many things you could craft that are not reusable. Maybe C4 timers…

[Binky]

This proposal doesn’t stop grinding really, it just stops grinding on pointlessly low items and encourages the player to explore and get new things, rather than just finding a few MREs and bottles of water and maxing out their skills in the starting shelter.

Yeah, there will still be some repetition (as there was before) but hopefully as the game moves forward we’ll balance the other aspects so you don’t really need to be repeating needlessly that much, just due to the amount of things you want/need to build. Disassembly is a very realistic way of making progress, and I feel that if we could balance the needs of recipes with the absolute ton of stuff you get from disassembly better, this would be less of an issue.

[Adrian]

I think we need to re-think the hard cap.

In my game i’ve come to the curious problem of being unable to reach lv 4 in electronics because i can’t seem to find any books overlapping levels 3-4 and anything i can make (including re-assembling flashlights) doesn’t give experience anymore.

Earlier in the thread i mentioned a gradient of experience gain which wouldn’t prevent the player from grinding after a certain point, but would encourage progression instead.

Disclaimer: I’m not saying we should allow for endless grinding. What i’m saying is that encouraging the player to find another means of gaining experience is a much better alternative than arbitrarily halting progress because “you’re not supposed to do that”.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

[quote=“Adrian, post:55, topic:5547”]I think we need to re-think the hard cap.

In my game i’ve come to the curious problem of being unable to reach lv 4 in electronics because i can’t seem to find any books overlapping levels 3-4 and anything i can make (including re-assembling flashlights) doesn’t give experience anymore.

Earlier in the thread i mentioned a gradient of experience gain which wouldn’t prevent the player from grinding after a certain point, but would encourage progression instead.

Disclaimer: I’m not saying we should allow for endless grinding. What i’m saying is that encouraging the player to find another means of gaining experience is a much better alternative than arbitrarily halting progress because “you’re not supposed to do that”.[/quote]I think we just need to give the player more to do within the problem skill gap. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Electronics and Tailoring are right now the most “grindy” skills, because the items you make with them are mostly permanent - they’re not usually things you need to make more than one of. Adding more recipes and more items to make will alleviate the problem. Right now you can leap from level 3 to level 4 by disassembly-learning the recipes for the hotplate and the coffeemaker (and the transponder), and crafting them until you get your level up, but in reality we should really add more items for the player to take apart and study on. Printers, scanners, TV remotes, hairdryers, computer peripherals, all that kind of stuff. Level 3, around which you can easily make radios and transponders, sounds like a level where you could be good enough to start making basic dynamos and electric engines.

[Adrian]

So off of the top of your head you can name only three items in the entire game that can grind a player from electronics 3 to 4. That’s not enough.
And you know those items can be learned through disassembly. Now imagine that a new player that relies on his hotplate to purify water won’t make the gamble of disassembling it on the off-chance he might learn to re-assemble it.
So yeah, i agree there needs to be more things to learn-by-disassembling-them from.

However, i still don’t think the arbitrary grind cap is a good direction to take. In part because i’m afraid it will start a precedent for arbitrarily capping other things in Cata because it’s the simplest solution.
A better solution i think would be one where the player is encouraged to find other sources of experience without having the game flatout saying “i’m not giving you experience for this anymore.”

[Sean_Mirrsen]

But it does make sense to not give more experience to the player once the task is too trivial to learn anything. How will you improve your understanding of electronics past the basic soldering of wires if all you ever see is a battery and a lightbulb? So however limiting it might be, it is a better solution than others. It’s far easier to make more items for a player to find and learn on, than change the system to something else again.

[Adrian]

I know quoting myself is arrogant, but:

[quote=“Adrian, post:26, topic:5547”]My solution for the grind would be to make experience gain inversely proportional with the difference between PC skill and the recipe’s required skill.
That way the PC can still craft fishing hooks with 100% success rate, but would gain an decreasingly significant amount of experience from it after overskilling the recipe.

In addition to preventing grinding, the inverse proportionality of experience gain with the PC’s overskill will also encourage the player to make some higher level stuff as opposed to making X items for Y time.

And as far as implementation goes, i doubt this will be any more difficult that adding an equation to the code before the actual experience gain.[/quote]

A quick scribble on my calculator gives Y=1/(1+X) as a pretty decent candidate.
Where: X is the difference in skill between the player and an action’s requirement.
and Y is a resulting skill gain factor.

It would give the player an increasing penalty for grinding things below their capabilities, in effect continuously encouraging them to try something else without enforcing it.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

[quote=“Adrian, post:59, topic:5547”]A quick scribble on my calculator gives Y=1/(1+X) as a pretty decent candidate.
Where: X is the difference in skill between the player and an action’s requirement.
and Y is a resulting skill gain factor.

It would give the player an increasing penalty for grinding things below their capabilities, in effect continuously encouraging them to try something else without enforcing it.[/quote]The thing is that it makes sense to enforce it. This isn’t about skills that can be, realistically, improved by just any kind of practice. A highly skilled engineer, forced to stamp washers out of a sheet of metal for eight hours a day, will lose his finer skills because the primitive requirements of the task he’s performing dull out his senses, and he falls out of practice with the more advanced methods of fabrication. The cap, as-is, actually prevents skill rust, and doesn’t cost you focus when you make routine items, meaning that it’s far more beneficial to the player than it could have - and should have - been made.