Fishing Hooks = OP

Game Talk The Drawing Board
1

So you may have clicked on this post thinking ‘why the hell are fishing hooks OP? This guy must be tripping or something.’ Well, here is a quick tutorial on how to become amazing at the fabrication skill within minutes. If you don’t want this, in my opinion, overpowered method to boost up your fabrication look no further!

Hey kids! Ever wanted to be pro at making stuff? Well here’s a quick and very easy tutorial on how to do it.

  1. Grab a rock
  2. Smash everything you can made of wood in the evac shelter.
  3. Make a fishing hook (the recipe consists of 1 nail, and a rock to hammer the nail with).
  4. Press ‘-’ to repeat your previous craft. Hold it down until no nails are left.
  5. Congratulations! You’re like level 3 or 4 in fabrication now! To increase it further, make loads of pointy sticks!

Sorry about this rant, I may seem like being a bit of an asshole, but it just doesn’t make sense to me how I can still learn about fabrication by smashing a nail with a rock, or sharpening a stick. Sorry if this has already been planned, but I have a proposition:

Level 0 crafting recipes should only boost your XP until you get to, like, level 3 or something. Then you’ll need to actually get your tools out and start crafting some more, advanced and useful things.

Either that or you could just nerf the fishing hook by whacking in a piece of small string in the recipe, I dunno. But anyway thanks for your time and I truly am sorry if you were already planning to change this!

2

Pretty sure it has string in it already, and if you don’t wanna grind XP don’t grind XP?

3

No, a fishing hook is just a crooked nail.

What’s more, you can “disassemble” the hook, and get back your nail! And then make it a hook again.

I think the best way to “fix” this is to simply reduce the amount of skill gain from such simple tasks, and make required point amounts for skill gain more exponential.

Or perhaps make it so that you can’t raise your skill to more than X+1 by doing a given task, where X is the difficulty rating of the task in question? So that you wouldn’t get farther than level 1 by grinding nails, and would have to find more complex recipes if you wanted to increase your skills further?

4

HEAR, HEAR!

I’m amazed developer(s) hadn’t thought about that while coding up the crafting system.

it’s just a no-brainer,-P
eai

5

PR’d a quick, blunt cap to the crafting skill increase based on the current level and the difficulty of the crafting performed. https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/6849

It could use some prettying up, maybe tell the player that “This task is too simple to train your skill with it” every once in a while? I.e. something like one if five or one in ten times, so that it doesn’t clutter the message log but the player that’s grinding his skill repeatedly will notice it?

6

I applaud anyone who contributes, but the problem I see with capping skill gains like that is that it’s a purely punitive measure. It doesn’t really address why players are grinding in the first place.

People don’t grind because it’s fun. This measure in isolation is just going to force players to use progressively more difficult recipes, so I’d suggest coupling the change with something to alleviate the need to grind in the first place.

I don’t think the skill gains for (what should be) infrequently performed actions are nearly enough. They should be much greater, and should be more proportional to recipe difficulty and time. If the crafting skills (for example) increased at a more reasonable rate through natural play, the need to grind them could be diminished.

7

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:5, topic:5547”]PR’d a quick, blunt cap to the crafting skill increase based on the current level and the difficulty of the crafting performed. https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/6849

It could use some prettying up, maybe tell the player that “This task is too simple to train your skill with it” every once in a while? I.e. something like one if five or one in ten times, so that it doesn’t clutter the message log but the player that’s grinding his skill repeatedly will notice it?[/quote]
Awesome! I’ve been waiting for something like this for quite a while now.

[quote=“someguy, post:6, topic:5547”]People don’t grind because it’s fun. This measure in isolation is just going to force players to use progressively more difficult recipes, so I’d suggest coupling the change with something to alleviate the need to grind in the first place.

I don’t think the skill gains for (what should be) infrequently performed actions are nearly enough. They should be much greater, and should be more proportional to recipe difficulty and time. If the crafting skills (for example) increased at a more reasonable rate through natural play, the need to grind them could be diminished.[/quote]
There are already other methods in place for acquiring skill: reading books. By increasing your skill through reading you don’t need to grind at all. This here simply fixes all the exploits that allowed to increase skills in a too easy and boring manner, that is by performing the same action over and over (making hooks, boiling water, etc.).

8

[quote=“someguy, post:6, topic:5547”]I applaud anyone who contributes, but the problem I see with capping skill gains like that is that it’s a purely punitive measure. It doesn’t really address why players are grinding in the first place.

People don’t grind because it’s fun. This measure in isolation is just going to force players to use progressively more difficult recipes, so I’d suggest coupling the change with something to alleviate the need to grind in the first place.[/quote]Well yes, but alleviating the need to grind is merely an additional concern. One for balancing, that needs more careful consideration than I am capable of by myself.

This will, indeed, force the players to find and grind more difficult recipes. In my opinion, that’s perfectly realistic. Getting acquainted with the inner workings of progressively more and more complex electronics, for instance, will gradually increase the character’s electronics skill - just as, I would assume, it would do for a real-life person. Once you start understanding what wires tend to go where and which parts it is okay to poke with the screwdriver and which not, you become more proficient in the art of taking things apart and putting them back together - that’s the entire idea behind the notion of education. Basics first, then advanced.

And bending and unbending a nail for five weeks straight should really under no circumstances give you better insight into the finer points of fletching and swordsmithery, in my opinion. :slight_smile:

9

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:8, topic:5547”]Well yes, but alleviating the need to grind is merely an additional concern. One for balancing, that needs more careful consideration than I am capable of by myself.[/quote]Sure, I understand. Just thought this might be a good place to throw out some suggestions for whoever is concerned, since the issue has come up.

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:8, topic:5547”]This will, indeed, force the players to find and grind more difficult recipes.[/quote]I did say “in isolation”. I’m not saying this isn’t a good change (I think it is), I’m saying it’s not necessarily a good change on its own.

There’s also the problem that some skills don’t presently have a clear progression, or even any progression.

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:8, topic:5547”]In my opinion, that’s perfectly realistic. Getting acquainted with the inner workings of progressively more and more complex electronics, for instance, will gradually increase the character’s electronics skill - just as, I would assume, it would do for a real-life person.[/quote]Well yes, to a certain extent. But building the same thing over and over for 3% of a skill level isn’t at all realistic or fun though.

So let an item give more experience, depending on its complexity and the amount of time it takes to complete. Give a large bonus the first time something is crafted, give the same amount of skill on failure (although I think the game already does this), and/or give diminishing returns on the experience given for each item (the hard cap is more or less the same thing though).

Building a complex item for an hour should give you an appreciable amount of skill, it’s not something you should need to do over and over.[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:8, topic:5547”]And bending and unbending a nail for five weeks straight should really under no circumstances give you better insight into the finer points of fletching and swordsmithery, in my opinion. :)[/quote]I agree 100%. I think any part of a game’s design with the word “grind” in it needs to be taken quietly out the back and shot in the head.

[quote=“Uneron, post:7, topic:5547”]There are already other methods in place for acquiring skill: reading books. By increasing your skill through reading you don’t need to grind at all. This here simply fixes all the exploits that allowed to increase skills in a too easy and boring manner, that is by performing the same action over and over (making hooks, boiling water, etc.).[/quote]Books are a form of grind themselves. The higher level ones can take days per level to read, days you spend doing the same things over and over. There’s functionally not that much difference, just slightly less RSI :smiley:

10

Oddly enough, players aren’t literally forced to exploit every potentially unbalanced game mechanic.

It’s like, the nature of the beast with the way in which skill levels are determined. Similarly my character could make a hamburger one evening and, after a couple days out exploring and eating canned foods, have somehow forgotten how to make hamburgers cos of skill rust? There will always be problems with the system, no matter what system is used, but the benefit of a single player game is that you’re not competing with anyone and you can play how you want to. I could turn off skill rust if I saw fit to do so. No one who crafts dozens of fish hooks to raise their fabrication skill should be impacting your enjoyment of the game one single bit.

11

I see no point in removing the ability to grind, because it’s just that - an ability. A non optional method of doing something. One guy grinding nails to up his skill has absolutely no impact on your game experience.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to ask for something to be removed simply because it’s not your playstyle.

12

It doesn’t remove the ability to grind. It just caps it. Mostly so that the player can’t take a skill-gain shortcut via game-approved means. We have the debug menu for that.

Like I said, doing one simple task over and over should not make you advance in skill without limit. Go read a book, or find something else to craft. Even the epitomes of grinding, the MMORPGs, will not take you past a level or five if you just keep murderizing the wolf population around the starting area, forcing you to move on and do something else.

13

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:3, topic:5547”]No, a fishing hook is just a crooked nail.

What’s more, you can “disassemble” the hook, and get back your nail! And then make it a hook again.

I think the best way to “fix” this is to simply reduce the amount of skill gain from such simple tasks, and make required point amounts for skill gain more exponential.

Or perhaps make it so that you can’t raise your skill to more than X+1 by doing a given task, where X is the difficulty rating of the task in question? So that you wouldn’t get farther than level 1 by grinding nails, and would have to find more complex recipes if you wanted to increase your skills further?[/quote]

Hey, if you can bend-to-fishhook and straighten a nail 10 times, and have it still be perfectly suitable as a nail and bendable for an 11th time, you’re pretty bloody good at fabrication. Metal fatigues and continual bending like that would break the unit.

14

[quote=“KA101, post:13, topic:5547”][quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:3, topic:5547”]No, a fishing hook is just a crooked nail.

What’s more, you can “disassemble” the hook, and get back your nail! And then make it a hook again.

I think the best way to “fix” this is to simply reduce the amount of skill gain from such simple tasks, and make required point amounts for skill gain more exponential.

Or perhaps make it so that you can’t raise your skill to more than X+1 by doing a given task, where X is the difficulty rating of the task in question? So that you wouldn’t get farther than level 1 by grinding nails, and would have to find more complex recipes if you wanted to increase your skills further?[/quote]

Hey, if you can bend-to-fishhook and straighten a nail 10 times, and have it still be perfectly suitable as a nail and bendable for an 11th time, you’re pretty bloody good at fabrication. Metal fatigues and continual bending like that would break the unit.[/quote]Hey, that’s a good idea!
[me=Sean Mirrsen]writes down in the todo list - “Implement metal fatigue.”[/me]

:stuck_out_tongue:

More seriously, I’ve actually been considering some sort of accumulating damage on disassembly when your skill is low. It’ll require being able to pass parameters like charges and state to both the assembled item during assembly, and then back again at disassembly, so that’s a ways off, but still.

15

[quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:12, topic:5547”]It doesn’t remove the ability to grind. It just caps it. Mostly so that the player can’t take a skill-gain shortcut via game-approved means. We have the debug menu for that.

Like I said, doing one simple task over and over should not make you advance in skill without limit. Go read a book, or find something else to craft. Even the epitomes of grinding, the MMORPGs, will not take you past a level or five if you just keep murderizing the wolf population around the starting area, forcing you to move on and do something else.[/quote]
I just went and tried it out in game. After level 3 in fabrication, the method slows down to 2 experience points per hook. It’s way too tedious to keep going that way, and honestly, if someone actually continues at that rate, they should be commended for their patience. The skill cap feels redundant.

16

[quote=“tuiee, post:15, topic:5547”][quote=“Sean Mirrsen, post:12, topic:5547”]It doesn’t remove the ability to grind. It just caps it. Mostly so that the player can’t take a skill-gain shortcut via game-approved means. We have the debug menu for that.

Like I said, doing one simple task over and over should not make you advance in skill without limit. Go read a book, or find something else to craft. Even the epitomes of grinding, the MMORPGs, will not take you past a level or five if you just keep murderizing the wolf population around the starting area, forcing you to move on and do something else.[/quote]
I just went and tried it out in game. After level 3 in fabrication, the method slows down to 2 experience points per hook. It’s way too tedious to keep going that way, and honestly, if someone actually continues at that rate, they should be commended for their patience. The skill cap feels redundant.[/quote]

Yeah, I thought so too. :-/

17

2 points per hook means you need 50 hooks to gain a level, correct? Each hook takes 10 minutes, so you end up needing just over 8 hours of crafting. And you need 50 nails, which are laughably easy to acquire. By comparison, reading the Handloader’s Helper takes 30 minutes per step, and you need, IIRC, at least 10 steps to gain a level with it. So it’s longer to get to level 4 with the book, despite bending nails being a task so primitive that it shouldn’t even get you to level 2. The cap is mostly there as a sanity-check measure.

18

And if someone’s gonna sit there and mash “craft last item” 49 times, I’m willing to let 'em. I’d read a book or make something more useful, personally.

19

Input autorepeat is a thing, you know. I myself am guilty of overusing this thing when I found out how effective it is. I got my electronics to 6 by crafting and uncrafting a bunch of flashlights.

There’s also a “craft as long as you can” button.

20

And if someone’s gonna sit there and mash “craft last item” 49 times, I’m willing to let 'em. I’d read a book or make something more useful, personally.[/quote]
Exactly. It isn’t affecting people who don’t want to grind’s experience. It simply exists as another option for raising a skill. Books are used in exactly the same way: read, repeat, read repeat. Make hook, repeat, make hook, repeat.

They’re both means to an end. If someone doesn’t like one, then they should just not use it.