So, the current scent mechanics are … weird. And nonintuitive. And don’t, imo, make for particularly fun gameplay.
Your character sort of has this intense bubble of scent around him at all times, and it both builds and fades incredibly quickly. It also doesn’t even fill the viewable area at the lowest level.
So I think: Scent needs to build more slowly on neighboring squares, diffusing from high level squares. Scent needs to last longer, with high level squares the player has actually passed through lasting a day or more. Eventually, if a player spend several days in an area, scent should permeate it and any spawning monster with a keen sense of smell should know the player is there.
I also think zombies should no longer have such a good sense of smell. In fact, I’d favour removing it for detecting normal player smell completely. Zombie dogs however, would keep their keen sense of smell, and follow scent trails.
Since zombie dogs can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) knock down doors or otherwise overcome barriers, if the path for following a scent trail leads through one, they should start howling and otherwise making noise, attracting a mass of zombies capable of pushing through (but also warning the player that their hidey place has been compromised)
Can you actually make it work? I mean I’ve rung church bells without attracting zombies, so I’m… waiting to see if this can even be programmed honestly.
I agree with the ideas, i think they will enhance game play greately.
They will make shriekers actually relevant again and allow you to use stealth during night raids, it also makes it possible to distract and call the attraction of crowds with sound emitters and radios, and more importanty it allows you to break a chase by running out of sight.
(also if you are interested on hoe the changes will affect the you can try removing the smell tag from zombies in monsters.json a lot of things already change)
You mean like, if a group of spawned monsters is more likely to have a scent-aware individual, then let them come after the player?
As far as I’m concerned, rendering the whole area (house being an instance) to trap human scent could lead to more trouble, since you often cook, craft and dabble with various objects and substances… Have you thought of making clothes blood-soaked, and maybe only beds getting stuffed with perma-scent? Human bodies don’t really have that of a strong odour, and that’s in more than of just a few cases. Sure, you’d sweat profoundly due to all the nervousness if several zombies gave it a go on you, but an athletic and even self-taught fighter should rely on his/her senses not to get winded so to get in more and more heaps of trouble, such as of your proposing.
Small places, though, tend to hold scent in a long run. Take truck cabins, for example, or even closets (apartment blds in CataDDA).
[quote=“vultures, post:5, topic:3591”]You mean like, if a group of spawned monsters is more likely to have a scent-aware individual, then let them come after the player?
As far as I’m concerned, rendering the whole area (house being an instance) to trap human scent could lead to more trouble, since you often cook, craft and dabble with various objects and substances… Have you thought of making clothes blood-soaked, and maybe only beds getting stuffed with perma-scent? Human bodies don’t really have that of a strong odour, and that’s in more than of just a few cases. Sure, you’d sweat profoundly due to all the nervousness if several zombies gave it a go on you, but an athletic and even self-taught fighter should rely on his/her senses not to get winded so to get in more and more heaps of trouble, such as of your proposing.
Small places, though, tend to hold scent in a long run. Take truck cabins, for example, or even closets (apartment blds in CataDDA).[/quote]
Humans do have a stink to em, we’re just used to it. Afterall we sit in it all day, every day. Ever gone without deodorant for a couple of days? A week? Trust me you’ll notice it then. Or someone else will.
Try just turning zombie scent off and playing a bit, I strongly suspect if you do so zombies will become fairly trivial to lose, and be relatively unable to do simple things like try and break into a house you entered, basically breaking the game entirely
Before worrying about the “mechanics” being weird, what effects do you want? What does it do now that it shouldn’t, and what does it not do that it should?
As for features I want:
I’d like a separate “scent trail” mechanic for long-term tracking.
I think a long-term “cloud” effect is going to be too high maintenance. When a submap is unloaded, you can just store the most recent timestamp as the scent trail value for the whole submap and use that for overland tracking, if any.
[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:8, topic:3591”]Try just turning zombie scent off and playing a bit, I strongly suspect if you do so zombies will become fairly trivial to lose, and be relatively unable to do simple things like try and break into a house you entered, basically breaking the game entirely
Before worrying about the “mechanics” being weird, what effects do you want? What does it do now that it shouldn’t, and what does it not do that it should?
As for features I want:
I’d like a separate “scent trail” mechanic for long-term tracking.
I think a long-term “cloud” effect is going to be too high maintenance. When a submap is unloaded, you can just store the most recent timestamp as the scent trail value for the whole submap and use that for overland tracking, if any.[/quote]
Is there any way to make a middle-ground of sorts? Only allowing the zeds to figure out where someone is if they’ve been there a long time, LoS, Noise, or Light Source? Mayhaps give “Master” zeds a better sense of smell and give it the ability to “inform” other zombies?
I presume the Other Smells (smoke, gases, etc) would still overpower your scent, if not cancel it.
(Illustration: ZD chasing player, at night, insufficient moonlight for ZD to maintain sight. Player moves through (say) three tiles of smoke field. What result?)
I understand that Rain, etc tends to wash out smells IRL. Presume it still does in Cata. As such, rotten weather should reduce smell buildup when moving about during it, and accelerate scent-decay.
Scent should be more noticeable to the player. As is, I can play the game and have little-to-no-idea whether something smells me. If the character can see the sniffer, having a “The zombie dog sniffs, following a…your! scent!” message, or something like that, every so often would help.
Only real problem I’ve got is the idea that ZDs should summon reinforcements. We had a proposal for critters that basically worked as safe-space-breachers once already, and the last thing a character at critical health needs after their Narrow Escape…is to have their hidey-hole compromised.
Because we’re all telepathic enough to know when our stink has offended a nearby dog. Might just be better off saying something to the effect of “You’re starting to notice your own stink, it might be time for a shower” I don’t see any reason you should be able to know when something nearby can smell you
I presume the Other Smells (smoke, gases, etc) would still overpower your scent, if not cancel it.
(Illustration: ZD chasing player, at night, insufficient moonlight for ZD to maintain sight. Player moves through (say) three tiles of smoke field. What result?)[/quote]
Smoke and other gasses would eliminate scent trails the same as they do scent. Also e.g. crossing rivers.
Same, yes.
The problem is, if you can see it and it’s close enough to smell you, it can also see you. It’s a bit of a catch 22. There are some corner cases where it might happen(peeking through curtains with monsters sniffing around), but I’m not sure they’re worthwhile to worry about.
There are various ways you’ll be able to avoid being tracked, and alternately be prepared to defend against folowers. Also the implementation I have in mind naturally decays, so e.g. regular zombies would only follow a very fresh trail, where as wolves might follow it for quite a while. (otoh wolves probably shouldn’t be THAT interested in you in general)
Wasn’t planning on turning it completely off. Maybe I’ll do some diagrams later this week of the current system and what I want instead - I think that tends to be the easiest way to communicate what I mean in situations like this.
I really love this idea, especially as it pertains to zombie dogs. Having them acting like bloodhounds for the zombie hordes is pretty terrifying. You finally get home after a long night or day of raiding, and just as you snuggle up to your blanket for warmth you hear a howling outside your window!
I think the real deal here is somewhere between the lines of: "Should the scent make one or more of the undead aggressive and therefore tracking, or should it just trigger the ‘push toward’ component like the sounds eventually do?"
Now - for hungry predators, I have less of a dilemma, or non whatsoever. That’s only a thing of intelligence, you see - an experienced hunter such as lion for example, can tell oh so much only after one attempt on tracking; and not only by scent.
As far as the zombies go in CataDDA, I’d like to see them sticking around places of interest such as abundant resources (I have a gas truck’s tank half-full with fuel in my head) simply because open terrain doesn’t attract them as much, or they behave like swarms and prey on others that are likely to come and try to salvage anything. Remember that out there, if humans leave anything behind, there is a strict chain of “command” to be executed once certain nature’s processes take over - or even if petty creatures leave their trail.
In maybe a few words less than usual - certain zombie spawns should be able to migrate and check on areas that you affected in a way, such as if you left something of your own to pick up later. I’d question their ability to watch your every step, so to say.
The ‘zombie scent’ thing reminds me of Rogue Survivor. The game is sadly dead, and never had as much content as Cataclysm does… but it did have REALLY amazing AI. Part of that was the scent trail thing, where everyone left scent marks on the ground behind them all the time, which zombies could ‘see’ and would follow. Smarter zombies were better at following those cues, and dumber ones were at least smart enough to follow the leader… the result being that hordes would regularly track and attack you, even in basements. It was very difficult to maintain a safehouse, since coming and going meant leaving a noticeable trail for the roaming hordes. Furthermore, an obviously fortified shelter tended to attract other survivors, who would in turn attract zombies, thus thwarting your efforts to stay hidden and undisturbed on top of a hoard of food and water.
Getting towards the endgame… even if you managed to annihilate your trail behind you before entering, clearing, and re-powering the secret underground base, you’d only be safe for so long (admittedly, long enough to max out all the skills) before zombies started somehow finding their way to you in massive hordes. I figured that was because you were the last survivor (a fair assumption, after surviving that long), and the powerful zombie-demon bosses could magically sense your presence or something.
Regardless of exactly how it’s implemented, that kind of constant zombie pressure would be exactly what I’d want out of Cataclysm, going forward. I want to be awakened by zombies breaking down my door in the middle of the night; until the game can deliver on that, it doesn’t feel much like a real zombie apocalypse.
- certain zombie spawns should be able to migrate and check on areas that you affected in a way, such as if you left something of your own to pick up later. I’d question their ability to watch your every step, so to say.