Balance: pneumatic weapons

[darktoes]

With 8 shots mag you immediately make PBD not only an improved crossbow, but a weapon that makes the existence of good half of low/med caliber firearms moot.

It beats most pistol rounds I guess, but throwing a rock at someone’s head is usually going to beat those. Even then, most of those guns have pretty big magazines. Those are the absolute lowest end of guns, you can find better dropped from zombies. It’s not fair to compare the endgame bolt weapon to the weakest pistols. If you don’t have a proper assault rifle at least by the time you have the PBD then you must have screwed up somewhere.

[Solusphere]

I feel I should point out that there IS a repeating crossbow/Cho Ko Nu in the game, with a 10 bolt magazine. You can see it’s stats here: http://cdda-trunk.chezzo.com/rep_crossbow

This is probably what the PBD should be balanced against, if you’re comparing archery to pneumatic weaponry.

[Tamior]

tl;dr, some quick math says doubling load time to one minute per round and requiring a bicycle pump seems fairly reasonable.

Let’s just assume PBD is a crossbow and balance it as such.
So what do we have?

• makeshift crossbow (quick reload, low damage)
• crossbow (good damage, single shot)
• repeating crossbow (multi-shot, low damage)
• heavy crossbow (huge damage, VERY LONG reload, single shot)

I feel like PBD is better balanced by being added into this pattern. I.e.

• PBD (good damage (same as normal crossbow), multi-shot, LONG reload)
  or maybe
• PBD (great damage (same as now), average reload, SINGLE shot)

Giving it BOTH improved damage AND multi-shot does not feel right.

[Solusphere]

Here’s something for reference purposes.

Repeating Crossbow:
Volume: 2.5 L Weight: 8.00 lbs/3.63 kg

Damage: 0
Range: 8
Armor-pierce: 0
Dispersion: 500
Recoil: 30
Reload time: 50
Semi-automatic
Mod Locations:
4 accessories; 1 grip; 4 mechanism; 1 rail; 1 stock; 1 underbarrel

Crossbow:
Volume: 1.5 L Weight: 6.01 lbs/2.73 kg

Damage: 13
Range: 10
Armor-pierce: 0
Dispersion: 150
Recoil: 0
Reload time: 800
Semi-automatic
Mod Locations:
4 accessories; 1 grip; 4 mechanism; 1 rail; 1 sights; 1 stock; 1 underbarrel

PBD:
Volume: 3 L Weight: 6.86 lbs/3.11 kg

Damage: 20
Range: 20
Armor-pierce: 0
Dispersion: 30
Recoil: 0
Reload time: 500
Semi-automatic
Mod Locations:
4 accessories; 1 grip; 4 mechanism; 1 sights; 1 stock

[darktoes]

Let’s just assume PBD is a crossbow and balance it as such.
…
Giving it BOTH improved damage AND multi-shot does not feel right.

Except the repeating crossbow and heavy crossbow (I’m assuming the PBD is between the two) require low to mid game crafting skills and fairly simple resources. The PBD requires 8 mechanics, a welder and some reasonably uncommon resources (Compared to sticks and strings for the basic crossbow). I’d say it’s fine to make the most expensive, endgame option superior to earlier options.

[Tamior]

Except the repeating crossbow and heavy crossbow (I’m assuming the PBD is between the two) require low to mid game crafting skills and fairly simple resources. The PBD requires 8 mechanics, a welder and some reasonably uncommon resources (Compared to sticks and strings for the basic crossbow). I’d say it’s fine to make the most expensive, endgame option superior to earlier options.

Everything a PBD requires is either SUPER-common or common. Mechanics 8 is easy to train (it takes in-game time, but no rare resources).
Fusion rifle would be an example of something that actually requires something rare: a rare-ish CBM and a recipe from a rare book.

In general, crafting SKILL requirements are not good balancing mechanism when crafting skills are as easy to train as they are. I would much rather we balance the actual WEAPONS among them-self’s and adjust crafting requirements thereafter if we feel it’s necessary at that point.

[darktoes]

Everything a PBD requires is either SUPER-common or common. Mechanics 8 is easy to train (it takes in-game time, but no rare resources).
Fusion rifle would be an example of something that actually requires something rare: a rare-ish CBM and a recipe from a rare book.

In general, crafting SKILL requirements are not good balancing mechanism when crafting skills are as easy to train as they are. I would much rather we balance the actual WEAPONS among them-self’s and adjust crafting requirements thereafter if we feel it’s necessary at that point.

Sure, but getting your mechanics to 8, getting all the parts and the welder together are a bigger deal than taking down a curtain to make a crossbow. And at that point you probably have heavy survivor armor, a zweihander and 200 rounds of 5.56. Nothing in the game is really that hard to achieve.

My point is, it’s a logical progression from crappy to better to best. If you took out/weakened the PBD then the only really good weapon with reusable ammo would pretty much just be the reflex recurve bow. This is basically just a straight-up, high-end upgrade to the crossbow, which seems okay to me. It’s still going to lose hard against any comparable assault rifle or LMG, which have their own disadvantages, yes, but they’re the only other thing to balance against.

I also disagree that crafting skill requirements are a bad thing to balance with considering that the rapier so easily outperforms the pointy stick.

And there should still be another more modern crossbow with better stats.

[Tamior]

Sure, but getting your mechanics to 8, getting all the parts and the welder together are a bigger deal than taking down a curtain to make a crossbow.

You don’t exactly start the game with a recipe for crossbow by default. Plus I don’t suggest we balance PDB to be multi-shot equivalent to crossbow — that’s what a repeating crossbow is.

My point is, it’s a logical progression from crappy to better to best. If you took out/weakened the PBD then the only really good weapon with reusable ammo would pretty much just be the reflex recurve bow.

And it would make prefect sense since that weapon needs a SEPARATE skill to use and book to craft. So, yes, if you want to be the best at reusable ammo weapons — train a different ranged skill and hope for a book instead of just getting it by default as a side bonus of training rifles and mechanics.

And let’s be honest here: if PBD had the same damage as normal crossbow it would STILL have HIGHER damage than re-curve bow and HIGHER rate of fire for the first 8 shots, so it would still be competitive with reflex recurve bow.

This is basically just a straight-up, high-end upgrade to the crossbow, which seems okay to me. It’s still going to lose hard against any comparable assault rifle or LMG, which have their own disadvantages, yes, but they’re the only other thing to balance against.

It would be an upgrade if it had JUST the higher damage or JUST the larger mag. PBD has BOTH. That’s the problem.

I also disagree that crafting skill requirements are a bad thing to balance with considering that the rapier so easily outperforms the pointy stick.

It’s has more to do with how crafting skills are actually trained in this game. You can power from lvl 4 to lvl 8 mechanics by just staying at home base for a day or two. That’s not hard at all. But that’s a different topic, tbh.

And there should still be another more modern crossbow with better stats.

THAT I actually agree with. So we get two improved auto-learn crossbows:

• one with improved damage and accuracy (something in-between normal crossbow and heavy one)
• one with improved mag size (newly balanced PBD) but same damage

[kevin.granade]

Schedule 80 off the shelf pipe,

The tank is easy, it’s fittings and valves I’m sceptical of.

Would industrial airguns still use bolts or

Read my link, there are lots of options.

Let’s just assume PBD is a crossbow and balance it as such.

We can do that to a point, but not to the extent of ignoring the physical realities of a pneumatic gun.

PBD (good damage (same as normal crossbow), multi-shot, LONG reload)

This is where it should go, removing multi shot changes it’s entire concept.

PBD (great damage (same as now), average reload, SINGLE shot)

I agree this could be a new improvised pneumatic gun.
It follows the pattern of conventional pneumatic guns much more closely, the multi- barrel and multi resivior thing never made much sense in the first place tbh.

[Tamior]

I agree this could be a new improvised pneumatic gun.

It follows the pattern of conventional pneumatic guns much more closely, the multi- barrel and multi resivior thing never made much sense in the first place tbh.

I’m not sure we should make this improved single-shot bolt caster pneumatic, tbh.
I mean, “pneumatic” does not really mean anything as such, and if it’s single-shot and does not use two types of ammo (compressed air and bolts) we might as well just call it “improved crossbow”.
Pneumatic makes sense for multi-shot stuff as it kind-of-explains where the energy is stored in-between reloads. For single shot that’s hardly necessary.

Heavy crossbow has 40 damage and pretty bad accuracy. Normal crossbow has 13 damage and ok-ish accuracy. I’d say make improved crossbow 20 damage (so improved over base, but not that much) and much better range/dispersion (above that of the best bow), keep it single shot and make reload about 120-150% of normal crossbow reload time at the lowest, with a bit stronger dependency on str.

[kevin.granade]

I’m not sure we should make this improved single-shot bolt caster pneumatic

If you can find an example of a crossbow irl that meets the given requirements (buildable from scrap, design is obvious in a way someone could figure out on their own, very high draw weight, etc) then feel free. Whether or not that happens, a powerful pneumatic single-shot gun is an option.

much better range/dispersion (above that of the best bow)

Whats your rationale for making it more accurate? Thats the global drawback of the craftable ranged weapons, you don’t have the tooling necessary to make it super-accurate.

[tarburst98]

i just find it odd how up in arms tamior is about this. if a lot of people say one thing and you say another you should really consider if you are actually right or just think you are right. most of the people in here seem to be saying it’s fine as is.

[Tamior]

If you can find an example of a crossbow irl that meets the given requirements (buildable from scrap, design is obvious in a way someone could figure out on their own, very high draw weight, etc) then feel free. Whether or not that happens, a powerful pneumatic single-shot gun is an option.

Well, I was really thinking more along the lines of “after using normal crossbow for long enough you improve the design based on personal experience”. Damage increase from 13 to 20 and better accuracy for a crossbow does not seem like it’s out of the realm of something you can deduce from personal experience. But I’m ok with putting it into archery books as a acquired recipe if that is deemed to be more reasonable.

Whats your rationale for making it more accurate? Thats the global drawback of the craftable ranged weapons, you don’t have the tooling necessary to make it super-accurate.

Well, the best bow IS craftable, it stands to reason that a single-shot crossbow can be made to be just as accurate. Maybe I’m assuming too much to say it can be made MORE accurate, but the same level of accuracy (projectile dispersion-wise) seems quite reasonable.

[kevin.granade]

Damage increase from 13 to 20 and better accuracy for a crossbow does not seem like it’s out of the realm of something you can deduce from personal experience.

Your rationale for HOW the player learns to make a better bow is irrelevant, I want confirmation that the bow you’re describing exists.
But to address your rationale anyway, making a better bow is a matter of better utilizing materials, it doesn’t follow that using the same bow is going to lead to a better understanding of how to make a bow. If the player constructed and tested a bunch of bows, that is the kind of thing that would lead to learning how to make a better bow, but that still doesn’t justify the existence of a better bow.

it stands to reason that a single-shot crossbow can be made to be just as accurate.

Based on what? I don’t know what the relative accuracies of bows vs crossbows actually is, but game balance doesn’t enter into it.

Both of these are things you want to be true because you’re starting with a percieved balance niche and trying to fill it. Neither of these have any rationale behind them. You need to start from existing bows, crossbows, etc and proceed from there.

[Tamior]

Your rationale for HOW the player learns to make a better bow is irrelevant, I want confirmation that the bow you’re describing exists.

I was talking about a crossbow, not a bow. And since in would fit in-between normal crossbow and heavy crossbow damage-wise, it stands to reason that this kind of crossbow should exist.

But to address your rationale anyway, making a better bow is a matter of better utilizing materials, it doesn’t follow that using the same bow is going to lead to a better understanding of how to make a bow. If the player constructed and tested a bunch of bows, that is the kind of thing that would lead to learning how to make a better bow, but that still doesn’t justify the existence of a better bow.

As for the “how” question, I’d apply the same logic as to “how” a PC with archery (1) discovers how to build short bow and with archery (3) discovers the longbow.

Based on what? I don’t know what the relative accuracies of bows vs crossbows actually is, but game balance doesn’t enter into it.

Well, direct google search does not net anything conclusive.
To quote from here https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2016/08/a-fresh-look-at-the-crossbow-vs-compound-debate :

That’s why my personal effective hunting range with a crossbow is at least 20 yards farther than it is with a compound. Every bowhunter I know who has used both tools and is being honest will tell you the same thing, or very nearly so.

Other websites state that they are about the same or bows are somewhat better (for a HIGHLY skilled archer).

I’d say based on the fact the use very similar physics to shoot dispersion would be comparable.

[tarburst98]

i would like to mention that the archery skill in the crafting recipe is the sub skill not the used skill. your character simple needs that experience with a bow to understand things like what a good bow FEELS like. the basic bow is just a bent stick with a string on it. it’s only technically a bow, but higher tier bows are carved and shaped properly by someone that knows how bows actually work. also you don’t design the top bows yourself, you read about how to make them in a book.

[Tamior]

i would like to mention that the archery skill in the crafting recipe is the sub skill not the used skill. your character simple needs that experience with a bow to understand things like what a good bow FEELS like. the basic bow is just a bent stick with a string on it. it’s only technically a bow, but higher tier bows are carved and shaped properly by someone that knows how bows actually work. also you don’t design the top bows yourself, you read about how to make them in a book.

I have no strong opinion here. If it feels more correct to limit this improved crossbow to being book-only I’m ok with that. There IS, in fact, a distinct lack of book-only improved crossbows with the exception of heavy crossbow that is more of siege weapon.

[kevin.granade]

And since in would fit in-between normal crossbow and heavy crossbow damage-wise, it stands to reason that this kind of crossbow should exist.

If it fit in between the crossbow and the heavy crossbow in all stats, you’d have a point, but you’e cherry-picking arguments to justify the different stats. For damage it’s in-between, so it stands to reason that dispersion, weight, etc should also be in between.

From your article:

I recently tested all the newest flagship crossbows and compounds.
The guy is talking about top-of-the-line modern bows and crossbows, it’s completely irrelevant.

[Tamior]

The guy is talking about top-of-the-line modern bows and crossbows, it’s completely irrelevant.

So what is the reflex recurve bow based on? I always assumed it’s based on top-of-the-line modern bow.

[kevin.granade]

You’re making an assertion about relative accurcy of two different kinds of cobbled-together bows, you need tomething to back that up. I’m not asking for much here, but you’re providing nothing.