Aiming system enhancement

[system]

Well, since we’ve got NPC’s, headshots and such, I’ve came with a problem that bothered me even since Whale’s original game.
WHY CAN’T I AIM MY GODDAMN ATTACK?
What if I want to use my sledgehammer to break that goddamn leg of that Z and walk around laughing, while this half-corpse tries to crawl after me?
Why can’t I shoot that NPC’s gun out of his hands and then ATATATATATATATA him with my centipede style just like Kenshiro?
At last, why can’t I stick some explosive arrows in the jabberwock’s HERETICAL HOLE for some EXTRA DAMAGE?
It’s not easy and rather big part, but if it;s done properly - the game would be 100% cooler.

[John_Candlebury]

The problem with aiming to special body parts is that as of right now, monsters are just one body parted blob that varies only in skills, description, health, and your imagination.

And if you wanted to implement this, the coding a new extensive body definition system will have to take place, which might happen but is probably not going to happen anytime soon.

[system]

And if you wanted to implement this, the coding a new extensive body definition system will have to take place, which might happen but is probably not going to happen anytime soon.

Mhm, it’s quite easier than you think.
In fact - you don’t need to code in bodyparts, there’s easier way. Much simplier system which includes array of coefficients and modificators to damage caused and accuracy, so you don’t really need to code in that goddamn full-bodypart system. You choose part which you want to shoot, but instead game just changes your chances to hit and damage caused + any special effects if there’s enough damage.

[John_Candlebury]

[quote=“trusty_patches, post:3, topic:2727”]Mhm, it’s quite easier than you think.
In fact - you don’t need to code in bodyparts, there’s easier way. Much simplier system which includes array of coefficients and modificators to damage caused and accuracy, so you don’t really need to code in that goddamn full-bodypart system. You choose part which you want to shoot, but instead game just changes your chances to hit and damage caused + any special effects if there’s enough damage.[/quote]

Well this approach works for simple things like making creatures slower if you shoot their legs and making them blind/deaf after shooting their head, however I don’t think it would allow for things like decapitation and limb removal to take place not will allow them to die from blood loss after the removals

[system]

Well this approach works for simple things like making creatures slower if you shoot their legs and making them blind/deaf after shooting their head, however I don’t think it would allow for things like decapitation and limb removal to take place not will allow them to die from blood loss after the removals

Geez, this approach works for almost everything - except for VERY complex things. Limb removal - replaceable by insane penalty to speed/anything, bleed - simple damage_over_time effect.
Except for the fact that this is merely a makeshift solution that won’t work out when actual limb system will be added.

[Zireael]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:4, topic:2727”]Well this approach works for simple things like making creatures slower if you shoot their legs and making them blind/deaf after shooting their head, however I don’t think it would allow for things like decapitation and limb removal to take place not will allow them to die from blood loss after the removals

Geez, this approach works for almost everything - except for VERY complex things. Limb removal - replaceable by insane penalty to speed/anything, bleed - simple damage_over_time effect.
Except for the fact that this is merely a makeshift solution that won’t work out when actual limb system will be added.[/quote]

I wouldn’t hope for a limb system anytime soon, the devs are busy with other stuff.

[Sharklaser]

As far as bodyparts have no real use there is absolutely no need to create hit locations. They would give absolutely no benefit or add to the gameplay in any way. They add visual effects to 1st person shooters, but in roguelike they are useless.

All effects of aimed hits are currently measured in different maluses and that is their only direct result. These attacks can create objects (torn feet, arms and heads) to world as separate objects for artistic/narrative reasons, but these objects dont need to have complex rigging behind them.

So. Solution is not to have aiming - but different called attacks that create these maluses.

For example like this:

Crippling hit - Costs 30 time units more, has 20% additional chance to miss but if it hits it slows down enemy by 1d6*5, upto maximum of -60% movement speed. (Description: You shoot enemy in the leg bursting the kneecap/breaking bone etc). Good hit creates “Bloody foot” object.

Head shot - Costs 30 time units more, has 50% additional chance to miss but automatically crits with 1,5* more damage. (Description: Headshot! Brains splatter all over!).

Disarming shot - Costs 45 time units more. If creature is carrying anything this hit has 70% chance to make creature drop whatever its carrying and get 70% of normal damage. With enough damage creature gets also 1d6*10% malus to manipulative skills and with more than 50% hit is received “Bloody arm” object is created…

Etc etc. No need to rig complex bodypart system. All the related things can be created with maluses and narrations.

[Darkfyre]

[quote=“Sharklaser, post:7, topic:2727”]As far as bodyparts have no real use there is absolutely no need to create hit locations. They would give absolutely no benefit or add to the gameplay in any way. They add visual effects to 1st person shooters, but in roguelike they are useless.

All effects of aimed hits are currently measured in different maluses and that is their only direct result. These attacks can create objects (torn feet, arms and heads) to world as separate objects for artistic/narrative reasons, but these objects dont need to have complex rigging behind them.

So. Solution is not to have aiming - but different called attacks that create these maluses.

For example like this:

Crippling hit - Costs 30 time units more, has 20% additional chance to miss but if it hits it slows down enemy by 1d6*5, upto maximum of -60% movement speed. (Description: You shoot enemy in the leg bursting the kneecap/breaking bone etc). Good hit creates “Bloody foot” object.

Head shot - Costs 30 time units more, has 50% additional chance to miss but automatically crits with 1,5* more damage. (Description: Headshot! Brains splatter all over!).

Disarming shot - Costs 45 time units more. If creature is carrying anything this hit has 70% chance to make creature drop whatever its carrying and get 70% of normal damage. With enough damage creature gets also 1d6*10% malus to manipulative skills and with more than 50% hit is received “Bloody arm” object is created…

Etc etc. No need to rig complex bodypart system. All the related things can be created with maluses and narrations.[/quote]

2 Words: Dwarf Fortress.

[kevin.granade]

2 Words: Dwarf Fortress.

Very concise, but is that an argument for, or against?

Personally I think the outcomes of the DF bodypart system are pretty nifty, but I think the UI is terrible, and I think the enhancement to the game from it is questionable compared to the amount of time that goes into it.

I’d be very against a system that requires rigging up body parts for every monster in the game, and defining hit locations, etc, which I believe is required by the df system.

We have plans for a melee system where you attack in different ways, like “damage” “cripple” “push” and a few more, but I don’t think targeting body parts is a good way to go, as it requires the aforementioned rigging up body part lists for every creature for a questionable benefit of… well pretty much nothing as far as I can tell. It’s certainly possible to inflict immobilize and similar conditions on enemies to get the outcome trusty_patches is asking for, but I don’t think a limb targeting system is the best way to do that.

[Sharklaser]

2 Words: Dwarf Fortress.

… of which im keen fan of. Bodypart system in Dwarf Fortress gives very little real value to game. Also it has been constant source of tweaking, unbalances, bugs and weird behaviour due complexity issues. Not to mention the spent work vs. reward. The benefit is cosmetic and narrative; player “knows” the axe hits the camel’s hump and sticks there. But all these narrative/cosmetic things can also be done to same detail with statistical approach and by just having vivid textual narrating, dummy gib objects and status effects.

Only (as far as I know) roguelike game that actually needs complex bodypart system is IVAN. Thats because you can pick up severed limbs of enemies and attach them to yourself as replacement parts. So it makes sense to have character rigging because there is real need for keeping record on where your/their kneecaps actually are.

I give you 2 more words : Dungeon Crawl - Game that is brilliantly playable, extremely well balanced, fluid, “feels right” and has just statistical attributes and status effects (only “bodyparts” found on game are Hydra head count and kraken’s tentacles, special attributes in special monsters)

[Belteshazzar]

Hmmm, I have to agree with the above, except I can actually think of ONE good reason for a actual limb system in Cataclysm.

If the mutation/bionics system were expanded in such a way as to create non-humanoids.

[kevin.granade]

That’s exactly it, we have a (simple) limb system for players/NPCs. What I don’t see a need for is a limb system for monsters.

The difference is we care about representing specific health status, armor coverage, etc on players, less so on monsters.

[CIB]

The difference is we care about representing specific health status, armor coverage, etc on players, less so on monsters.

Except the game keeps growing and one day you’ll want to be able to perform ghetto surgery on your dog, except you can’t. =(

[vultures]

Except the game keeps growing and one day you'll want to be able to perform ghetto surgery on your dog, except you can't. =(

The same thing, when all the Cataclysm cools off, and you return to getting that cat out of tree again. But the cat has tentacles, and you don't. :-) Point taken; only you lack the comprehension in my observation - once the game is done with all the neat fickly-doodly features, you'll eventually see a mod that allows one to play as Diablo's Butcher character. "Providing human gore for everyone" kinda drill eventually gets you to the very ending, when you receive the antidote to your necroish condition but retain the experience with on-the-spot surgery of human, and canine, alike. :-P Lassie _will_ return home! :-)

[Mr_Epic_Cheese_Man]

Why don’t we just ‘Borrow’ the limb system from DF and use it in Cata? Say it’s for research then just copy and paste the normal version back.

[FunsizeNinja123]

Why don’t we just ‘Borrow’ the limb system from DF and use it in Cata? Say it’s for research then just copy and paste the normal version back.

I’m pretty sure we have to put their names in the credits for that.

[kevin.granade]

Also…
DF isn’t open source
This would require updating all monster definitons to match df
I don’t want the df limb system

[kilozombie]

I’m not even sure DF is written in C++, and transferring their system would be ridiculously difficult, at least to my understanding.

[Sheb]

Plus again, it’s not clear Toady would give away part of his code. DF is his child after all. You wouldn’t give your child’s limbs to a stranger, would you?

Anyway, DF is probably going into too much details (Do we really want a distinctions between eyelids, eyebrows and eyelashes?), but a rudimentary limb system seems cool and useful enough. As for the complexity of rewrinting every character’s definition… Well, the longer you wait, the more creatures we’ll have.

[i2amroy]

I’m not even sure DF is written in C++, and transferring their system would be ridiculously difficult, at least to my understanding.

Actually it is, and it is huge. As in DF 2012 has something like 120,000 semicolons in it (which is approximately the line count of the files’ code). And as people have mentioned, DF’s code is Toady’s. Its copyright is his, and until the day he dies (assuming he isn’t murdered, it’s in his will) that code is not open source.

Also I agree with kevin here. As of the moment we don’t really need a complex limb system for monsters as well as for players, especially since that limb code would need to be able to handle all number of limbs and various body part arrangements and be able to be easily modded (since eventually monsters will be moving to json files). Now I’m not saying that if one of you wants to go and make such a system we won’t take a look at it, but it’s not really on any of our lists and whatever we do decide to merge will meet the standards we set.