Z's and their HP

Game Talk The Drawing Board
61

Where else would we be talking about? Heh, can you even own a gun in any other country without a license (to own, not even talking about concealed-carry)? And honestly I would expect those who carry to use a double-action firearm rather than a cocked single-action. I’m surprised anyone would be cavalier enough to carry a cocked single-action, but I guess we’re talking about people paranoid enough to carry. I would think it’s a common assumption though that you’d carry with a round in the chamber. If you encounter a knife-wielder at 21 feet WITHOUT a round in the chamber, then sure, you’re probably (I refute any claims of “guaranteed” though, since you’re still at least as well off as unarmed) fucked. That’s precisely one of the reasons you would carry with a chambered round. Now, imagine some guy is mugging you with a gun, now you’re REALLY fucked. Against a knife, you might take your chances, they might not be great, but they wouldn’t be zero either. Against a gun, without a round, you’ve basically got a paperweight. With a round, maybe you see a chance to turn the tables by “accidentally” dropping your wallet or something. If he’s distracted he might not notice you draw. He’d probably notice you chambering a round though.

Your friends who were trained in muay thai and went against someone armed with a gun is nowhere near the same situation. Nobody goes to a club with the intention of shooting a couple bouncers. Rare enough that someone would go to a club to shoot up defenseless patrons, but who the hell would pick a fight with the strongest ones there, out on the street where outsiders could see and report it? And if by chance someone did (maybe due to a personal grudge), they would have just shot your friends from a distance. No, they probably thought flashing a piece would intimidate your friends, and it didn’t work, since a gun in the belt is not a threat to someone who is a) trained, b) already within 3 feet of you. Those are far, FAR from the conditions we were discussing. That does not prove your position at all. I conceded in my FIRST post that if the knife were already at my throat, I wouldn’t have a chance. That is basically the same thing.

Most people are intimidated by guns. Most people are not trained in martial arts. People like that would likely give you the right of way (I’m guessing that guy just wanted to get into the club and thought your friends would make way if he showed them his gun) just from seeing a holstered gun. Those are reasonable assumptions to make (though not reasonable for bouncers, so that guy was probably just an idiot). That doesn’t mean everyone would make that assumption, and if faced with an adrenaline pumped, insane knife-murderer at 21 feet, I don’t think anyone would make that assumption, they would shoot as quickly as they were able. And if they had at least enough training to not panic, they would be able to judge whether that would be before or after the knife-murderer reached them and alter their actions accordingly. This might mean spending a few seconds unarmed, dodging knife-strikes, looking for a chance to draw, or it might mean drawing immediately if they were fast enough, but the disadvantage of unarmed against knife (and they cannot be worse off than this unless they’re panicking) would be in endurance. A knife obviously only requires a bit of contact to create a great wound, whereas dodging would likely require more effort. A knife’s sharpness would not be affected by its user’s fatigue whereas the unarmed person’s ability to dodge would.

And a double-action firearm cannot accidentally discharge. This is a matter of the laws of physics. You cannot just create energy out of nothing, and reactions are governed by the laws of thermodynamics. The hammer is not going to cock itself, in violation of entropy and conservation of energy. No amount of engineering (or lack thereof) can violate those rules, else someone would be REALLY rich by now after having created perpetual motion. Something has to physically pull the trigger (and hard enough) to cock the hammer. The only way for an uncocked double-action firearm to accidentally discharge would be for the ammunition to actually cook-off, which is certainly not going to happen if it’s sitting in your waistband or holster unless you’re literally on fire, in which case you’ve got bigger problems. Honestly, everything I’ve read about modern firearms says even a cocked single-action can’t accidentally discharge without someone actually pulling the trigger, but I’ll concede that may be, (MAY BE, not IS) simply pro-gun propaganda.

So, a website selling something said you need this something. Well, my friend, I’ve got some snake-oil you would just love.

62

I dunno what was the problem there (with my friends), some people are idiots who shoot first and think later, or don’t think at all. Reminds me of late case where guy came into restaurant, ordered food, eaten it and when waiter came to cashier him, he refused to pay since “it wasn’t good” and shot that poor waiter. Well, I’m not weapons expert (and you’re kinda right with perpetuum mobile), so I won’t go against that, but cocked weapon can go off, even though it won’t happen 99% of time. There can be mechanical abuse, temperature, sudden vibration, many factors which can contribute to setting it off… or not.

Well, I’m kinda tired of weapon discussions :smiley: Goin’ to play Cata for a while, and accidentally discharge my gun in the middle of town again. I wanted to test out dynamic spawn again, there was no one in town, and I was like “Where is everybody?”, so I tried a testing shot on ground. Sound meter shown 60, after a while few zeds shown up, and since I played Rambo and went against them, it all ended up with me running out of town like dog with tail on fire, followed by 15 zombies, which I managed to mangle in forest, but it was tight, almost got me there… Then Jabberwock came, to see what’s happening. Ugh.

63

[quote=“ejseto, post:61, topic:2137”]…

So, a website selling something said you need this something. Well, my friend, I’ve got some snake-oil you would just love.[/quote]

tl;dr but I defer to your obviously superior knowledge and worldliness.

64

Dodging knife attacks is really hard to do. You might imagine that dodging few knife attacks is possible , but only if they are slashing attacks , stab attacks are really hard to dodge , unless you have training in Krav Maga , and the other guy is terrible at swinging around his little pocket knife (and yeah , the knife wielding pal would be able to grapple you before you draw the gun and just stab, stab, stab).

But i totally agree that a gun is still superior in dealing lethal blows in just milliseconds from almost any range and it’s the ultimate weapon for almost any situation.
What would you chose in the situation , the knife or the gun(the gun is already loaded)?

65

[quote=“woflsipder, post:64, topic:2137”]Dodging knife attacks is really hard to do. You might imagine that dodging few knife attacks is possible , but only if they are slashing attacks , stab attacks are really hard to dodge , unless you have training in Krav Maga , and the other guy is terrible at swinging around his little pocket knife (and yeah , the knife wielding pal would be able to grapple you before you draw the gun and just stab, stab, stab).

But i totally agree that a gun is still superior in dealing lethal blows in just milliseconds from almost any range and it’s the ultimate weapon for almost any situation.
What would you chose in the situation , the knife or the gun(the gun is already loaded)?[/quote]

I… must… not… reply… :smiley:

66

[quote=“darth_servo, post:63, topic:2137”][quote=“ejseto, post:61, topic:2137”]…

So, a website selling something said you need this something. Well, my friend, I’ve got some snake-oil you would just love.[/quote]

tl;dr but I defer to your obviously superior knowledge and worldliness.[/quote]

There was this mythbuster episode once that tried to get rounds in supposedly twitchy long rifle to go off by concussion. They never really managed iirc. Another time they kept dropping an uzi down a flight of stairs.

I think modern day guns more or less always include enough safety features that accidental striking of the round without physically pulling the trigger as a common occurrence seems a little far fetched.

67

tl;dr? That was the only thing I said that was even addressed to you. Notice it’s the only thing following YOUR quotation. If two sentences is too long for you… well, let me just stock up on that snake-oil.

We’re operating under the assumption that both basically have equal training, but only enough training to not panic in the situation (which, granted, would probably require quite a bit to not panic in the face of an insane knife-murderer). I honestly don’t think it would be that hard to jump to the side as someone tries to stab me. The question is how many times can I do this before I get tired or slow, and the answer is most likely not even half as many times as he can stab at me. But if I had a loaded gun I’d only need to survive long enough to draw while dodging, I’d bet on me being able to last that long. Hell, assuming I can at least run, say, 80% as fast as the knife-wielder, I could simply just run away from him while drawing my gun and spin around and shoot him. Even if he can easily cover 21 feet in that time, I doubt he can cover that plus the extra distance I gain from running away. As a bonus, I’ve automatically fulfilled any “duty to retreat” self-defense laws may require.

68

Knife is a pretty easy weapon to swing around , so he could constantly stab and swing until he hits. And dodging while trying to pull out the gun is quite hard , because you’re distracted and he can easily grab you and just stab, stab, stab.

69

In knife attacks a lot of the victims have lacerations on their arms and hands. You can cut them as much as you want there, but it’s going to be a long time before they bleed out.
Some people even manage to grab the knife itself, or even the arm of the assailant.
There are precious few areas where you can down a person immediately with a knife, unlike a hollow point that delivers a considerable amount of stopping power
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php More info on lacerations on the human body, it is sourced from modern day police and medical records as well as duels before firearms became the big thing.

This passage among others highlight just how resilient tge human body is. The main weapons being daggers and swords.

[spoiler]While the previous tale seems amazing enough, hardly anyone can tell a story more incredible than that witnessed by R. Deerhurst.3 Two duelists, identified only as "His Grace, the Duke of B " and "Lord B ", after an exchange of exceptionally cordial letters of challenge met in the early morning to conduct their affair with pistols and swords. The combat began with a pistol ball inflicting a slight wound to the Duke’s thumb. A second firing was exchanged in which Lord B was then wounded slightly. Each then immediately drew his sword and rushed upon the other with reckless ferocity. After an exchange of only one or two thrusts, the two became locked corps a corps. Struggling to free themselves by “repeated wrenches,” they finally separated enough to allow the Duke to deliver a thrust which entered the inside of Lord B 's sword arm and exited the outside of the arm at the elbow. Incredible as it may seem, his Lordship was still able to manage his sword and eventually drove home a thrust just above Duke B 's right nipple. Transfixed on his Lordship’s blade, the Duke nevertheless continued, attempting repeatedly to direct a thrust at his Lordship’s throat. With his weapon fixed in His Grace’s chest, Lord B now had no means of defense other than his free arm and hand. Attempting to grasp the hostile blade, he lost two fingers and mutilated the remainder. Finally, the mortally wounded Duke penetrated the bloody parries of Lord B’s hand with a thrust just below Lord B 's heart.

In the Hollywood swashbucklers this scene might well have have ended at this point, if not long before, but real life often seems to have a more incredible, and certainly in this case, more romantic outcome. Locked together at close quarters and unable to withdraw their weapons from each other’s bodies for another thrust, the two stood embracing each other in a death grip. At this point the seconds, attempting to intercede, begged the pair to stop. Neither combatant would agree, however, and there they both remained, each transfixed upon the blade of the other until, due to extensive blood loss, his Lordship finally collapsed. In doing so, he withdrew his sword from the Duke’s body and, staggering briefly, fell upon his weapon, breaking the blade in two. A moment later, the “victorious” Duke deliberately snapped his own blade and, with a sigh, fell dead upon the corpse of his adversary.

Numerous similar accounts begin to make a case the prudent swordsman cannot afford to ignore. It would appear that delivering a thrust or cut to an opponent, without falling prey to his own blade in turn, may not be so very simple and easy a thing. If one is skillful (or fortunate) enough to accomplish this feat, how long after inflicting a wound with a rapier, sabre, or smallsword can one’s adversary continue to pose a threat? Does the type of wound have any meaningful effect on the length of time during which a stricken foe may continue to deliver a killing cut or thrust? To prevent the opponent from executing a counterattack, delivering a riposte or renewing an attack, where and how might one strike to take the adversary immediately out of the combat?[/spoiler]

70

I only have to deflect his momentum once to throw him off balance and buy a couple seconds of time. Am I certain I could do this, before being fatally stabbed? No. Am I certain I could not do this? Also no. It’s hardly clear cut. If he’s stabbing/lunging at me, he’s likely already putting himself off-balance to a degree, making it easier to do this. If he’s just slashing, then he’ll retain a lot more balance, at the cost of much damage potential. And as Flare pointed out, I could also grab the knife or the arm wielding it. This would likely require a lot of discipline to accept minor to moderate injury to prevent serious to fatal injury, but it’s not outside the parameters being discussed, since it’s already been stipulated that neither combatant panics, which actually implies quite a bit of discipline. As far as me being distracted trying to draw my gun, that’s strikes me as being outside the parameters being discussed, because that implies panic. If I know I can’t draw in time, I’ll try to wait for an opportunity while attempting to fight/survive bare-handed. I’m not going to wait for him to get in my face and then fumble with my holster if I didn’t even try to draw before he got to me, that’s retarded.

71

I am just saying , with a little bit of luck and maybe skill , the knife guy could effectively cause some damage and interrupt/knock the gun out of your hands.

But yeah , if you’re not afraid of getting some cuts , you could do the same and somehow get the knife out of his hands.

I still totally agree that you would have the gun in your hands before he even reaches you , i was just saying about how the knife guy might get lucky if you fumble or screw up while drawing the gun out of the holster.

72

To quote a great man (can’t remember his name at the moment…) “Flip for it. Heads, I lose. Tails, you die.”

Combat is chaotic and if you go in knowing you’re going to win you’ll likely meet a shocking end. There are no “sure wins” or even “always an advantage” in reality. Someone might have the sun in their eyes, be caught off guard, have to sneeze, be teamed up on, trip, be on drugs, have wounds already and so on. Never in life will you find two people with such a perfect set of circumstances that they are equal outside of the weapon they are handed. It’s just illogical.

All of this said, sure the tests say who has the advantage in that setup. Who has it if the gun-man already has the gun in hand? What if it’s already pointed at the person with the knife? What if he throws the knife? What if they are they on a boat? Do either of them have sea legs? What about uneven ground? Strong winds and grit? Darkness?

Simply put the world isn’t a laboratory with highly calibrated tools and a contaminant free environment. It’s a messy, haphazard place where shit happens.

So I propose this. Flip a coin. Heads the gun-man gets knifed. Tails the knife-man gets shot. You don’t need to tell anyone what you got, just know another flip and it could be another result.

This started as a point that zombies need more health because they don’t swarm you anymore. I agree with this point. Can we try to get back on subject and off the argument about something with too many variables to be worth the effort of thinking about? If you have read this rant all the way through, thank you.

73

You’ve missed the point a bit. I was the one asking under what circumstances a knife-wielder has the advantage, doubting really anything short of “knife-already-at-throat.” Other people come along and say “Of course knife-man has a huge advantage, it’s a fact well known by militaries and police,” (I paraphrase), as if it’s indisputable certain death within 7 yards. They then proceed to submit evidence that doesn’t really support that. And saying combat is chaotic is a total cop-out. That’s like saying we shouldn’t have science to understand the natural world because our knowledge is not complete, let’s just rely on worthless superstition instead. “Gee is it going to rain today? Well, you could ask a meteorologist, but since they aren’t always correct, let’s just flip a coin!” Incomplete understanding is no excuse to ignore clear patterns in phenomena. Science will never have all the answers, but that is not a failing because science doesn’t NEED to have all the answers.

74

This “knife v gun” argument is beyond played out, if anyone was going to have their minds changed, they would have already, please just drop it.

75

Tueller Drill:

Gun(loaded and holstered) vs knife (in hands of charging assailant)

Cataclysm:

Gun(loaded, ready, safety=off, scanning for threats) vs Zombie (lumbering corpse reanimated by evil slime organism from outer space)

nuff said

76

I did layed down my weapons :slight_smile: So… any ideas on how to make zeds harder to beat for advanced character, but not ultra hard for starting character?

77

You could simply increase the number of zeds and/or proportion of specials in a given spawn group, presuming Dynamic.

Truth be told, I don’t think they need an upgrade. It helps to have critters that get easier as the character develops–gives a feeling that your effort in developing the character paid off. There are tougher critters around, so I’m not worried about lack/challenge.

78

My thoughts on tougher zombies is mainly adjusting their swarm mechanics. Something for a programmer really but …
I would some days like to just hole up with z’s bashing at the windows and doors for hours/days at a times, hoping that an NPC might wander by before I have to take chances with unpurified toilet water. Or maybe that zombies are chasing me down a street, and I am going to take a left out of town, just to find that those zombies are angry at me too. There are all sorts of zombie behaviors that are not in the game that would just be fun to play around with. But the problem is getting them into the game. That I have no clue about. Good luck/

79

There was a suggestion around here somewhere to combine static and dynamic spawn… Well, that’s exactly what I miss too, that feeling, being sort of scared.