The current state of ammunition

SteelBlueWolf · 2015-07-06T16:29:36.000Z

@Random_dragon https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/12831

Random_dragon · 2015-07-06T16:35:23.000Z

Ah, seems I guessed correctly. But yeah, I PR’d something ammo-related a day before that, and it would’ve been merged the night after had I not forgot a couple things that resulted in errors. :V

Miloch · 2015-07-06T17:39:10.000Z

I’m just going to add this here as it’s something I recently became aware of. Not 100% fit for the thread. Military 5.56 rounds are not the same as the civilian equivalent. Though you can purchase the same ammo. Military 5.56 rounds have a painted green tip. This is to reflect the fact that they have a steel core to them. This gives them insane penetration values. The steel plates that a lot of ranges use in the Dallas area will not let me fire my 5.56 green tips as they will penetrate the plate at the back of the range. From my reading this is because the military is expected to have to shoot through obstacles to hit their target. Not only will the round penetrate but it holds together much more then regular rounds. A standard round will often break up after hitting something. Steel cored perpetrators will keep going. Ranges back with berms won’t let you fire them either as they will sometimes hold together and skip over the berm. This makes them unsuited to killing zombies as they will penetrate through the zombie and not leave a huge hole. Now part of what they say they are supposed to do is tumble inside the body, but that would count on it to hit bone just right…

Random_dragon · 2015-07-06T17:45:12.000Z

I think we do have a steel-core variant in the game, and it’s suitably rare as they would’ve be as readily available.

I do wish I knew just how common the AP rounds are in military use relative to FMJ though. About the only source I have to go on are field manuals, and they generally always mention both standard ball rounds and the armor-pentrating version when outlining the types of ammo in use for a given weapon.

They generally don’t mention how often they issue it though. The most info you’ll get is when tracer rounds are used, like mixture rates from MG belts, as well as specifying if an ammunition type is outdated and thus only being used until stocks are depleted.

EDIT: Hahahah. Naturally the first manual I dig up proves me wrong on that. FM 3-22.68 (covering the M249, M60, and M240) lists a steel-penetrator M885 as the standard “ball” round for the M249, along with the M856 (tracer, no penetrator).

EDIT 2: However, the same manual’s section on the M60 and M240 DOES list both the M80 “ball” round and the M61 armor-piercing rounds.

EDIT 3: Also, all this discussion on ammo and I’m STILL the only one to think it absurd that .270 Winchester is treated as a subtype of .30-06?

SteelBlueWolf · 2015-07-06T18:47:21.000Z

Military 5.56 rounds are not the same as the civilian equivalent. Though you can purchase the same ammo. Military 5.56 rounds have a painted green tip. This is to reflect the fact that they have a steel core to them. This gives them insane penetration values. The steel plates that a lot of ranges use in the Dallas area will not let me fire my 5.56 green tips as they will penetrate the plate at the back of the range. From my reading this is because the military is expected to have to shoot through obstacles to hit their target. Not only will the round penetrate but it holds together much more then regular rounds. A standard round will often break up after hitting something. Steel cored perpetrators will keep going. Ranges back with berms won't let you fire them either as they will sometimes hold together and skip over the berm. This makes them unsuited to killing zombies as they will penetrate through the zombie and not leave a huge hole. Now part of what they say they are supposed to do is tumble inside the body, but that would count on it to hit bone just right...

The green tip rounds are M855A1. At least according to [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO#M855A1]the wikipedia page for M855A1[/url] it is much more consistent than SS109/M855 because it does not suffer from yaw sensitivity which was the main problem with SS109's unreliable fragmentation. I'll replace SS109 with M855A1 as it is already being used in large quantities and will likely have completely replaced SS109 by cata's time.

Random_dragon · 2015-07-06T18:49:26.000Z

Ah, I see. The manual is from 2006 after all. >_>

Rivet · 2015-07-07T01:38:10.000Z

SteelBlueWolf:

It is absolutely possible for different weapons to use the same round, that is not the point. Pistols and SMGs use pistol rounds (eg 9mm), assault rifles and LMGs use intermediate cartridges (eg 5.56 NATO), battle rifles use full size rifle cartridges (eg 7.62 NATO) and HMGs use significantly more powerful ammunition (eg .50 BMG). No ammunition can fit all these categories at once. For example if 8x40mm is a pistol round it is inaccurate to call the RM88 a battle rifle.

The names of the various 8x40 weapons are merely descriptive: the SMG is a tiny full-auto weapon, the scout rifle is a semi-automatic marskman rifle, the LMG is a high-capacity automatic rifle, etc. They refer to the overall form of the firearm and how you handle it, not the particulars of what category of round it fires (for example the difference between the assault rifle and battle rifle being that the battle rifle is larger and has a slightly higher damage bonus) or anything as minor as ‘this one shoots a bullet that’s a quarter-millimeter larger than this one’.

Random_dragon:

EDIT 3: Also, all this discussion on ammo and I’m STILL the only one to think it absurd that .270 Winchester is treated as a subtype of .30-06?

.270 win is often made from modified 30.06 cases, and can be used in some 30.06 rifles (doesn’t mean that it’s always a good idea though, and you never load the inverse).

As you can see from a side-by-side comparison, they’re nearly identical.

Random_dragon · 2015-07-07T01:42:15.000Z

Ah, I see. And was I right about my guess as to the merge delay? o3o

Miloch · 2015-07-07T16:04:42.000Z

Green tips are the standard ammo issued by the Army. We used them on ranges and were issued them in Iraq. It honestly shouldn’t be rare as it is heavily stock piled and used by the US Military. And would most likely be the single biggest contributing factor to it’s downfall to zombies.

Random_dragon · 2015-07-07T16:20:03.000Z

Hmm, I see. Shows what I get for only having the FMs to go on. owo

Though at least in some states you can get them commercially, as Demolition Ranch often demonstrates. No idea if it actually performs similar to the green-tip ammo used by the military, though.

SteelBlueWolf · 2015-07-07T18:19:12.000Z

And would most likely be the single biggest contributing factor to it's downfall to zombies.

Due to lack of expansion? [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55CkeT7qdtM]This[/url] looks like it would do alright against zombies, especially at the extremely close ranges cata guns are used at.

What’s up with my PR? It looks like some of the changes made it through but the PR is still open with merge conflicts.

Random_dragon · 2015-07-07T18:24:22.000Z

Yeah. These don’t seem to be the “you have to shoot them in the head” kind, so even steel-core should have decent terminal effects on zombies. And if they WERE the headshot-only kind, shot placement would be infinitely more important than penetration.

And all I know is you must’ve borked something. Check the thing that should show you the bot script, that’ll show any errors.

SteelBlueWolf · 2015-07-08T10:29:59.000Z

The PR made it through. Next I’ll do rifle rounds, then pistol rounds, and whatever is left after that.

Miloch · 2015-07-08T15:35:46.000Z

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1tAtW2JKRE is a 5.56 round with the proper barrel twist (yes, it matters). It penetrates about six inches of gel/soft tissue before fragmenting and tumbling.

SteelBlueWolf · 2015-07-08T16:37:56.000Z

What do you think the implications of that would be against zombies? Should M855A1 have a lower damage value than the muzzle energy would imply?

Random_dragon · 2015-07-08T18:03:50.000Z

When in doubt, use 120mm instead. XP

SteelBlueWolf · 2015-07-09T15:16:55.000Z

github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA

Changes to rifle rounds

by ghost on 03:10PM - 09 Jul 15

0 commits changed 0 files with 0 additions and 0 deletions.

Second PR with changes to 7.62 Soviet, 5.45x39mm, .308, and .223.

Random_dragon · 2015-07-09T15:20:24.000Z

Ah, neat.

Miloch · 2015-07-09T16:20:27.000Z

Honestly, the point is pretty much academic at this point. Because anything large, like a hulk, the round will tumble within and tend to cause more damage. In standard sized zombies, the round would tend to pierce through and not deal lots of damage. Also, if using an AR-15 without the correct rifling twist on it, you’d get the same affect on the zombies as it reduces the penetration value of the round. So in the end it has way too many variables to include in a video game. The only in game changes I could contemplate would be making it so high penetration rounds deal less damage to zombies and maybe having a higher penetration military 5.56 round.

Random_dragon · 2015-07-09T16:34:05.000Z

It is interesting to see someone make the attempt though, so long as any realism introduced compliments the game rather than detracts from it. As it stands, I do think tweaking the ammo in certain ways, more to reference real-world ammunition in use, is a decent touch.

Terminal ballistics will always be a hassle to code though. Though I wonder how well terminal ballistics would work using Dwarf Fortress physics…