Rebalance bow draw strength requirements

[Solusphere]

With the addition of the multiple pools system, stat totals for the average player are now significantly lower, with a stat of 10 or higher requiring you to bring another stat below 8. However, the strength requirements to use many bows with optimal efficiency are still very high, with a reflex recurve bow requiring 12 points of strength to use with max efficiency. Given that archery also relies heavily on the dexterity AND perception stats, this pretty much requires you to make your archery-based character a moron on creation, or stumble across some lucky CBMs or mutations to give yourself the stat points required.

I don’t feel like you should require sci-fi magic to create a character who can effectively wield a real-life weapon using default CC options. Having a top strength requirement of 10, which I equate to “fit, strong human in good physical condition” would be a better option than 12, which is closer to olympic bodybuilder levels as I understand it.

[BeerBeer]

I’m on a month old experimental but in it a reflex recurve bow has a minimum strength requirement of 6. It used to be 12 long ago… unless it’s 12 again?

[Solusphere]

I’m on a month old experimental but in it a reflex recurve bow has a minimum strength requirement of 6. It used to be 12 long ago… unless it’s 12 again?

The minimum to fire it at all is 6. For every point of strength below 12, it’s range decreases by two tiles. So a person with str 10 would have 4 tiles less range than a person with str 12. Which doesn’t sound so bad, except that bows are pretty short ranged to begin with, and accuracy as a whole is calculated based on maximum range.

I’m not saying they can’t be used effectively, but to me it seems like they are designed with the expectation of a character build which is no longer reasonable to obtain without CBMs or mutations. You shouldn’t have to be near-superhuman, or some kind of idiot savant, to wield a real life weapon optimally.

Same thing goes for SICP and it’s 13 point intelligence requirement, now that I think of it.

[Coolthulhu]

You shouldn’t have to be near-superhuman, or some kind of idiot savant, to wield a real life weapon optimally.

If we’re talking realism (“real life weapon”), it would be closer to 14 than 12. Remember we’re talking about optimum, which in case of reflex recurve bows should be way above “just kinda strong” or “average modern adult male”.
Real life bows that were used in wars and not just for (close range) hunting and sports required enough strength that people who routinely used them had noticeably altered skeletons because of that.

In case of gameplay, even when you’re below the optimum, the only thing you’re losing is some max range. Meaning it doesn’t really matter unless you’re using explosive arrows, because it’s accuracy that is the limiting factor for non-explosive arrows.

[Bumpkin]

Real life bows that were used in wars and not just for (close range) hunting and sports required enough strength that people who routinely used them had noticeably altered skeletons because of that.

Those bows were for sending arrows into massed formations hundreds of yards away though, not for picking individual targets and hitting them. I don’t think a survivor would find practical use for anything close to the draw strength of a war bow (up to 180lb). For comparison, a rando website I found says 55lb is considered good enough to hunt grizzly bear and cape buffalo.

[Coolthulhu]

Those bows were for sending arrows into massed formations hundreds of yards away though, not for picking individual targets and hitting them.

Meaning range penalty is perfectly sensible here.

I don’t think a survivor would find practical use for anything close to the draw strength of a war bow (up to 180lb). For comparison, a rando website I found says 55lb is considered good enough to hunt grizzly bear and cape buffalo.

Hulks are bigger than grizzly bears and cape buffalo, so having an overpowered war bow would make sense here.
55 lb draw would still require quite a bit of strength.
http://www.bestrecurvebowguide.com/recurve-bow-draw-weight-chart-for-choosing-drawing-weight/ recommends 55 lb only to heavily built people.

[BeerBeer]

@Solusphere
You are right that bows are demanding instruments. They require strength, eyesight and good hand-eye coordination. A master archer is an elite human being in my books. The question it comes down to is that “Should the bows be that demanding in Cata?” which is more of a design decision. Developing a good archer in Cata seems challenging (not that I’ve tried) but it more or less parallels with reality IMO.

The way I see it, the problem might not be the strength requirement but the other two stats: DEX and PER. One might as well argue that one or both are the issues, asserting too much penalty on ranged combat, preventing a character becoming a master archer.

While I and others might be OK with the current state of archery, you could ask for help how to change the archery yourself. The question is to me is what CAN one do to tweak the aspects of archery? Is it as simple as dropping the minimum STR requirement of all bows? Which other files, lines and settings are relevant to combat, let’s say, DEX and PER penalties on ranged combat? Would one need to recompile the game to change those?

Well… I guess you could just give a few more character points to yourself at the character creation, and pump that INT up…

[evilexecutive]

[quote=“BeerBeer, post:7, topic:12048”]@Solusphere
You are right that bows are demanding instruments. They require strength, eyesight and good hand-eye coordination. A master archer is an elite human being in my books. The question it comes down to is that “Should the bows be that demanding in Cata?” which is more of a design decision. Developing a good archer in Cata seems challenging (not that I’ve tried) but it more or less parallels with reality IMO.

The way I see it, the problem might not be the strength requirement but the other two stats: DEX and PER. One might as well argue that one or both are the issues, asserting too much penalty on ranged combat, preventing a character becoming a master archer.

While I and others might be OK with the current state of archery, you could ask for help how to change the archery yourself. The question is to me is what CAN one do to tweak the aspects of archery? Is it as simple as dropping the minimum STR requirement of all bows? Which other files, lines and settings are relevant to combat, let’s say, DEX and PER penalties on ranged combat? Would one need to recompile the game to change those?

Well… I guess you could just give a few more character points to yourself at the character creation, and pump that INT up…[/quote]

I feel like there should be a full set of bows keyed to various strength requirements. Like for example, having an 6-point Composite Longbow(which would be extremely weak and inneffective, as it’s literally a bow for children), and a 16-point composite longbow(Aforementioned WAR Bows, like the kind that can penetrate in one end and out the other of a suit of plate), while also taking every increment of 2 along that scale up to 18.

[Kryxx]

Modern Recurve bows have draw weights. If it’s set for a heavy person (175lb man) say like a 12 strength (probably 40-50lb) A ‘heavy’ draw would be upwards of 55-60, and weaker person (or character) that has a 6 str wouldn’t even be able to use it. They would need to start with probably a 20-25lb draw. So you want realism in cata.

@ 25-30 pound draw you can hit archery targets @ 60-70 yards Sure you may not ‘take down’ a target. But you will hit soft targets.

40 is recommended for hunting so you have enough pull to actually get through the animal, and not stick it with a dozen arrows.

What is weird is basically this game has no way to gain stats. But just doing things like Archery regularly will gain you strength. Beginners start with a lower draw strength and as they gain strength and skill they increase it.

So we have dozens of guns because it’s cool, but 4 types of bows because ‘it’s easier’. In reality there should be as many or more bow types based on draw strength.

Fact is, if your not strong enough to pull the bow, you use a crossbow. Then you crank the release back if a big heavy one, and set the bolt, fire again.

[Miloch]

Stat requirements on anything should only be based off of realistic decisions when the realistic ability to alter your stats through exercise also existed… IMHO.