Mutation category expansion

[AllisonW]

I’m sympathetic to Coolthulhu’s views here. A “mixed” mutation isn’t bad if it rewards particular playstyles, akin to, say, taking Flimsy in chargen isn’t such a great idea for a melee character but can be worth the points for a gunner, whereas you don’t want to take Trigger Happy if you’re going to be a gunner (one who uses automatic firearms, at least) but it’s worth the points for a melee character. Or how if you want to go the loincloth-clad barbarian route, mutations that make you stronger and tougher but keep you from wearing armour would be just peachy. Stuff like that.

[Darkfirephoenix]

Fantasy-based critters default to No. Elf-A has a lot of backstory (that’s, admittedly, not well-imparted) behind how they came to be, and it still caught a lot of flak.

It isn’t fantasy based, it’s more some kind of other plane lifeform that has highly adapted towards fire/heat and that in a VERY possible way even in our world (their organism runs better on heat and heat activates some dormant lying abilities like minor regeneration. It’s some kind of stimulus for their organism). The chemical and biological base is existant for us, but there are no real animals that HAD to evolve that way (there are bomb beetles that spray boiling liquid in RL so the fire spitting chems aren’t that far off).

And now to the fantasy based topic: Eldrich beeings, “demons”… They ARE already here, so why is a mutation path that is even possible in our “normal” world too far off/too fantasy?

The salamanders would be “just another kind of lizard” but one that is adapted to heat/fire with a body that can withstand high tempearatures, has fire resitance (special kind of scales/breathing system) and a special way of hotbloodedness (mamals are hot blooded which means that the body will try to keep a specific temperature, salamanders work the same way but they have only a minimum for body temperature, everything above allows to their organism to reroute the given resources to other places).

[Muaddib]

Are you kidding me?

What kind of salamander likes heat and fire? No real salamander.

Fantasy salamanders like heat and fire. A real world salamander or a CataDDA human mutant-salamander should shrivel up and die when exposed to heat.

And your ideas about warmbloodedness fit better with the raptor. IIRC the raptor is running around with lizardman coldbloodedness while dinosaurs were warmblooded.

[Stretop]

Fantasy-based critters default to No. Elf-A has a lot of backstory (that’s, admittedly, not well-imparted) behind how they came to be, and it still caught a lot of flak.

Well, this fire-lizard may be another take on “mutant-shock-troops” concept (that was demonstrated with chimeras). Consider this: you have something that fights zeds for you. What’s next? The next in the order of importance is to create something that would fight all those other denizens for you. And the most convenient way to do this? Right, KILL IT WITH FIRE!

So such “salamanders” can be “mutant-shock-troops” that is mutated, implanted with some CBM Flamethrowers (real ones, not those finger-mounted lighters) and CBM Metabolic Interchange and dropped to deal with slime-pits, triffid groves, fungal towers and the like.

And as researcher probably alredy learned, that dead chimera is still a very mean critter to deal with (with so much blob-generated mutations it will almost always reanimate), dying salamanders should explode, so that there will be nothing left to reanimate and they would be taking their killers with them.

[iceball3]

Mutation trees aren’t exactly controlled, though. It is more “throw new mutagen type at test sunject, document effects, and THEN propose a purpose”. They can’t just make something happen the way they want it. Chimera was a fluke, while salamander sounds extremely specific and “engineered”, which would have not have been enough time for.

[Darkfirephoenix]

snip

Pretty much this, I imagine that there are “fire-lizards” in other planes but not to such a extreme degree as to call them a real Salamander. The researchers could have gotten some and when confronted with the zed problem created a mutagen that takes those usefull base abilities (higher resistance to heat, boiling chem spitting) and “improved” the capabilities. (the original fire lizards would be small in but the “improved” would be as big as humans [they are mutated humans after all], leading to better usability/combat ability) Those would make extremely good “soldier” for fighting zeds, nether inhabitants and mainly Triffids and Fungaloids.

A (planned) safeguard for them turning after death would be the instable chem cocktail inside the body, that would have (planned) mixed upon death (thanks to releaxing muscles keeping the chems in the glans) lead to a explosion that takes (AT LEAST) the body out (body would get pulped upon death).

[Altiumbe]

Okay, I have had a couple of ideas about mutation incubated in my head for a while, and I figured I’d dump them in this thread.
The gist of it is to segregate mutations by what they effect, e.g. mind, whole body, arms/legs, just arms, etc. and then instead of limiting the player to one type of mutant (all of the mutations do the exact same thing every time you get them, never more or less), to make it more organic, like when the game decides to give you, say, Tentacle Arms, there are a number of ways it could go, for example, maybe your arm turns into one tentacle that ends in a whole bunch of subtentacles, maybe you sprout tentacles from your back, or maybe you just get vanilla tentacle arms. Or in the slime tree, your insides could be acidic allowing you to envelop enemies, damaging their equipment, or you could get a slimy but harmless interior that you could use to store items in (maybe even get the ability to preserve foodstuffs if you get real lucky).
In essence, when you mutate, you roll a couple dice for various aspects of the trait RNGesus gave unto you, roll high and you get a trait with huge benefits and minimal (but existent) drawbacks, roll low and you get the opposite, roll in the middle and you get a superman-with-AIDS style trait.
My idea is just to add more randomness into mutation of the player-friendly and replayable variety.

One question, is this thread just for mutations, or are Starter traits ok too?
Thanks in advance.

[iceball3]

While it is a very good idea to have factional mutant acceptance, it seems best to include a case-by-case variance. For instance, one person may be partial or even infatuated to certaint kinda of mutants, but outwardly hide it around their comrades due to social stigma of the faction.
Just as well, it seems that sufficient speech slill and intelligence should be able to override the negative social effects of having the “psycopathy” styled mutations. Who says my character is not allowed to like people?

[Darkfirephoenix]

[quote=“iceball3, post:448, topic:3755”]While it is a very good idea to have factional mutant acceptance, it seems best to include a case-by-case variance. For instance, one person may be partial or even infatuated to certaint kinda of mutants, but outwardly hide it around their comrades due to social stigma of the faction.
Just as well, it seems that sufficient speech slill and intelligence should be able to override the negative social effects of having the “psycopathy” styled mutations. Who says my character is not allowed to like people?[/quote]
I think it should go like this as well. Maybe someoen has seen a partner/friend getting shredded by a wolf and has now a strong dislike towards wolves/canines, but his faction has no problem with them (they may even love canine mutants!)
And towards the psychopath thing: The definition ingame isn’t right: There are people that could kill without a second thought but still be nice persons in general and as such wouldn’t count towards psychopath. The inability of feeling bad towards some “bad” things you do is just a psychopathic TENDENCY, not full psychopathy.
(I for example didn’t really felt sad when my grandparents died, even though I really liked them. I just thought: “At least they don’t suffer anymore.” Btw: I’m diagnosted with psychopathic TENDENCIES)

Now back on-topic:
Regarding my salamander idea:

Some chemicals in the blood/organism of the salamder would give them a higher resistance towards heat and a special type of scale would grant resistance to fire (would work like nomex clothes).

Imagine the reaction of researchers that would find such creatures (and the researchers having possible ways to make mutagen) and their ideas:

1. Use in civil sector: Firefighter, Smeltery workers and maybe Miners (no need to wear heavy protective equipment thanks to build in protection against heat and injuries)
2. Use in military sector: Soldiers adapted to hot climates, “Schock”- and Crowdcontrol- Troops (who wanna mess with a 1.80m big firechem spitting lizard?)

Now towards the raptor tree: It seems that it is based on outdated information: The dinosaurs were hotblooded, as their size would have lead to severe problems if they were coldblooded (and some other facts that I don’t remember atm. The idea of dinosaurs beeing coldblooded came from the early stages of dinosaur research and the fact that they are “lizards”, which lead to researchers believing that dinosaurs also HAVE to be coldblooded. Just look at the early dinosaur models: They often put bones together that belonged to multiple different kinds of dinosaurs just to get a “full skelleton” to show off)

[Darkfirephoenix]

[quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:449, topic:3755”][quote=“iceball3, post:448, topic:3755”]While it is a very good idea to have factional mutant acceptance, it seems best to include a case-by-case variance. For instance, one person may be partial or even infatuated to certaint kinda of mutants, but outwardly hide it around their comrades due to social stigma of the faction.
Just as well, it seems that sufficient speech slill and intelligence should be able to override the negative social effects of having the “psycopathy” styled mutations. Who says my character is not allowed to like people?[/quote]
I think it should go like this as well. Maybe someoen has seen a partner/friend getting shredded by a wolf and has now a strong dislike towards wolves/canines, but his faction has no problem with them (they may even love canine mutants!)
And towards the psychopath thing: The definition ingame isn’t right: There are people that could kill without a second thought but still be nice persons in general and as such wouldn’t count towards psychopath. The inability of feeling bad towards some “bad” things you do/experience is just a psychopathic TENDENCY, not full psychopathy.
(I for example didn’t really felt sad when my grandparents died, even though I really liked them. I just thought: “At least they don’t suffer anymore.” Btw: I’m diagnosted with psychopathic TENDENCIES)

Now back on-topic:
Regarding my salamander idea:

Some chemicals in the blood/organism of the salamder would give them a higher resistance towards heat and a special type of scale would grant resistance to fire (would work like nomex clothes).

Imagine the reaction of researchers that would find such creatures (and the researchers having possible ways to make mutagen) and their ideas:

1. Use in civil sector: Firefighter, Smeltery workers and maybe Miners (no need to wear heavy protective equipment thanks to build in protection against heat and injuries)
2. Use in military sector: Soldiers adapted to hot climates, “Schock”- and Crowdcontrol- Troops (who wanna mess with a 1.80m big firechem spitting lizard?)

Now towards the raptor tree: It seems that it is based on outdated information: The dinosaurs were hotblooded, as their size would have lead to severe problems if they were coldblooded (and some other facts that I don’t remember atm. The idea of dinosaurs beeing coldblooded came from the early stages of dinosaur research and the fact that they are “lizards”, which lead to researchers believing that dinosaurs also HAVE to be coldblooded. Just look at the early dinosaur models: They often put bones together that belonged to multiple different kinds of dinosaurs just to get a “full skelleton” to show off)[/quote]

[EkarusRyndren]

[quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:449, topic:3755”]Imagine the reaction of researchers that would find such creatures (and the researchers having possible ways to make mutagen) and their ideas:

1. Use in civil sector: Firefighter, Smeltery workers and maybe Miners (no need to wear heavy protective equipment thanks to build in protection against heat and injuries)
2. Use in military sector: Soldiers adapted to hot climates, “Schock”- and Crowdcontrol- Troops (who wanna mess with a 1.80m big firechem spitting lizard?)[/quote]

Mutations weren’t even being used by the US military, let alone civilian sector.

[Darkfirephoenix]

[quote=“EkarusRyndren, post:451, topic:3755”][quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:449, topic:3755”]Imagine the reaction of researchers that would find such creatures (and the researchers having possible ways to make mutagen) and their ideas:

1. Use in civil sector: Firefighter, Smeltery workers and maybe Miners (no need to wear heavy protective equipment thanks to build in protection against heat and injuries)
2. Use in military sector: Soldiers adapted to hot climates, “Schock”- and Crowdcontrol- Troops (who wanna mess with a 1.80m big firechem spitting lizard?)[/quote]

Mutations weren’t even being used by the US military, let alone civilian sector.[/quote]
They weren’t, YET!
What do you think the goal was of all this research? To gain an edge upon “rivals” (mainly China), so things like mutagens that are usefull in many apects would, in the end, be used to obtain that edge. Think about it, what is more efficient:
a) CBMs that are pretty complex to create, take quiet some knowledge to instal and even have the risk of failing if the installing person doesn’t know what he/she is doing.
or
b) Mutagens that can be be used by ANYONE without extra knowledge (obtain mutagen, drink/inject, PROFIT) and (depending on how the mutagen was “refined” to do only specific mutations) have no real drawbacks besides some strain on the body.

Now why weren’t they used yet? Simple: The cataclysm happend before the mutagens reached the “final stage” (usability for broad masses). You can bet that as soon as the mutagens would have reached the “save to use” stage, they WOULD have been used (along with the typical propaganda about “Our new super- soldiers and workers surpass EVERYTHING China could ever create”)

[Stretop]

[quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:452, topic:3755”]They weren’t, YET!
What do you think the goal was of all this research? To gain an edge upon “rivals” (mainly China), so things like mutagens that are usefull in many apects would, in the end, be used to obtain that edge. Think about it, what is more efficient:
a) CBMs that are pretty complex to create, take quiet some knowledge to instal and even have the risk of failing if the installing person doesn’t know what he/she is doing.
or
b) Mutagens that can be be used by ANYONE without extra knowledge (obtain mutagen, drink/inject, PROFIT) and (depending on how the mutagen was “refined” to do only specific mutations) have no real drawbacks besides some strain on the body.

Now why weren’t they used yet? Simple: The cataclysm happend before the mutagens reached the “final stage” (usability for broad masses). You can bet that as soon as the mutagens would have reached the “save to use” stage, they WOULD have been used (along with the typical propaganda about “Our new super- soldiers and workers surpass EVERYTHING China could ever create”)[/quote]

Darkfirephoenix, you should really read this and this.

[Logrin]

What about non-category mutations? As in mutations that fall outside the current flavors. I’m thinking they’d be mostly bad, maybe a little desirable in certain circumstances and only show up from untargeted mutagen. ((Or radiation, scientist mouth beams, etc.)
Some examples:
Misophonia - The hatred of sound. Any time the player hears a sound IG there’s a chance that it will trigger negative morale.

Haemophilia - Excessive bleeding from even minor cuts. Players will bleed more often and more severely. A steady supply of bandages will be a must.

Uncanny Gait - The jerky, gamboling stride with which you walk may be slow but it makes it harder for attackers to predict your next erratic movement. Speed debuff with a bonus to dodging.

Tiny mouth - Your mouth has shrunken to minuscule proportions. Eating takes much MUCH longer and you can’t talk from quite as far away. You’re also less likely to inhale spores.

Huge eyes - Your eyes have ballooned to preposterous size! Aiding perception but leaving you much more likely/vulnerable to getting hit in the eyes

Asymmetrical - Nothing fits your weird body quite right (+1 constant encumbrance) and others are bound to find your form uncanny (Easier to spook NPCs)

Hyperfocus - You are hyper attentive and very task oriented. ((Your focus will never drop below a certain threshold) Incidentally you find yourself less inclined to indulge in frivolous pursuits (Much less morale gain from pretty much everything but food)

Fire Resistant - You secrete an oily film of non-flammable rime greatly reducing your likelyhood of catching fire. This does nothing to make you more resistant to ambient heat and also makes you more susceptible to electric shock.

[Rivet]

I’ve considered adding hemophilia before. I think I’ll add it to my to-do list.

[Darkfirephoenix]

Darkfirephoenix, you should really read this and this.

Could point out what you mean with your comment? Did you want to point out that the mutation in itself doesn’t go with the lore? Or that my idea that the government would use mutagens is wrong?

The lore case: The blob is the “stemcells” of all the nether creatures, so all creatures are based on the blob and the blob could assume their forms (but loose the changing ability). Nether creatures develop depending on the area they are in and depending on other nether creatures. SO why wouldn’t somekind of fire resitant lizard be that far of? It would be just an adaption towards heat (which is one weakness of the blob), just to claim more “territory” and also it would be kinda helpfull for the fight against the fungals/triffids (all organisms evolve to be better adapted and to be on-top of competitors, so a form that can fight fungal/triffid will evolve sooner rather than later. And it is stated that fungals/triffids DID already collide multiple times prior to the events of cataclysm). Now if you come with the: Magical/Mystical beeing: They are “normal” organisms that just have a different chemical mix in their bodies that allows higher resistance towards heat. Most likely the researchers just came up with the name because the organisms resembled the mystical salamander.

The government case: Why WOULDN’T the government allow the use of mutagens if it had them? It would just fit! The government is reckless and sensationalist and fuels the fear towards other powers. So they WOULD take the possible way that would lead to less reliability on resources they don’t have in great amounts (most electronic components require “rare earth”, which is mainly found in… CHINA, which is one of the “threats” for america). So mutagens would be a very good solution and also a very “cheap” one, which the government would even more like to take (look at the evac shelters for example). And even the different organisations would allow mutagens if it would strenghten their positions, regardless of corruption)

[EkarusRyndren]

[quote=“Stretop, post:453, topic:3755”]Darkfirephoenix, you should really read this and this.

Could point out what you mean with your comment? Did you want to point out that the mutation in itself doesn’t go with the lore? Or that my idea that the government would use mutagens is wrong?

The lore case: The blob is the “stemcells” of all the nether creatures, so all creatures are based on the blob and the blob could assume their forms (but loose the changing ability). Nether creatures develop depending on the area they are in and depending on other nether creatures. SO why wouldn’t somekind of fire resitant lizard be that far of? It would be just an adaption towards heat (which is one weakness of the blob), just to claim more “territory” and also it would be kinda helpfull for the fight against the fungals/triffids (all organisms evolve to be better adapted and to be on-top of competitors, so a form that can fight fungal/triffid will evolve sooner rather than later. And it is stated that fungals/triffids DID already collide multiple times prior to the events of cataclysm). Now if you come with the: Magical/Mystical beeing: They are “normal” organisms that just have a different chemical mix in their bodies that allows higher resistance towards heat. Most likely the researchers just came up with the name because the organisms resembled the mystical salamander.

The government case: Why WOULDN’T the government allow the use of mutagens if it had them? It would just fit! The government is reckless and sensationalist and fuels the fear towards other powers. So they WOULD take the possible way that would lead to less reliability on resources they don’t have in great amounts (most electronic components require “rare earth”, which is mainly found in… CHINA, which is one of the “threats” for america). So mutagens would be a very good solution and also a very “cheap” one, which the government would even more like to take (look at the evac shelters for example). And even the different organisations would allow mutagens if it would strenghten their positions, regardless of corruption)[/quote]

It’s not that the government wouldn’t back mutation, it’s that they didn’t. While you make a good point about the Rare Earth Elements, it’s still not what happened with the lore. The US gov backed tech, not mutation. THAT SAID, there was some work done into mutation, but it’s kinda like the whole betamax vs VHS thing. Sure, betamax exists, and there are people who will defend it to the death, but VHS won.

EDIT: …guys he makes a good point, like a really good point… If we’re preparing for war with China, dependance on Rare Earth Elements is kinda like going to war with electricity and depending on powered armor… It really might just be better off with China using advanced electronics and the US using mutation… Unless we want to sort out that logistical problem

[TheFlame52]

I’ve considered adding hemophilia before. I think I’ll add it to my to-do list.

Add a blood-thinning trait that’s more common than hemophilia. The only reason everyone knows about it is because the royalties had it. In the general population, it is very uncommon.

[Stretop]

The government case: Why WOULDN’T the government allow the use of mutagens if it had them? It would just fit! The government is reckless and sensationalist and fuels the fear towards other powers. So they WOULD take the possible way that would lead to less reliability on resources they don’t have in great amounts (most electronic components require “rare earth”, which is mainly found in… CHINA, which is one of the “threats” for america). So mutagens would be a very good solution and also a very “cheap” one, which the government would even more like to take (look at the evac shelters for example). And even the different organisations would allow mutagens if it would strenghten their positions, regardless of corruption)

1. The government had no mutagens, they were experimental and in development when Cataclysm struck. And mutagens are unreliable and unpredictable (unlike CBMs and high-tech equipment) - you cannot create an uniform army from bunch of different mutants.

2. Most modern day electronic components require “rare earth”. How do you know that 30 years in the future they are not replaced with different synthetic compounds, created from more available materials?

[Darkfirephoenix]

[quote=“Stretop, post:459, topic:3755”]1) The government had no mutagens, they were experimental and in development when Cataclysm struck. And mutagens are unreliable and unpredictable (unlike CBMs and high-tech equipment) - you cannot create an uniform army from bunch of different mutants.

2. Most modern day electronic components require “rare earth”. How do you know that 30 years in the future they are not replaced with different synthetic compounds, created from more avaialbe materials?[/quote]

3. I already commented about that, you are just walking in circles with your argument. Please pay special attention to the last info I gave:

[quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:452, topic:3755”][quote=“EkarusRyndren, post:451, topic:3755”][quote=“Darkfirephoenix, post:449, topic:3755”]Imagine the reaction of researchers that would find such creatures (and the researchers having possible ways to make mutagen) and their ideas:

1. Use in civil sector: Firefighter, Smeltery workers and maybe Miners (no need to wear heavy protective equipment thanks to build in protection against heat and injuries)
2. Use in military sector: Soldiers adapted to hot climates, “Schock”- and Crowdcontrol- Troops (who wanna mess with a 1.80m big firechem spitting lizard?)[/quote]

Mutations weren’t even being used by the US military, let alone civilian sector.[/quote]
They weren’t, YET!
What do you think the goal was of all this research? To gain an edge upon “rivals” (mainly China), so things like mutagens that are usefull in many apects would, in the end, be used to obtain that edge. Think about it, what is more efficient:
a) CBMs that are pretty complex to create, take quiet some knowledge to instal and even have the risk of failing if the installing person doesn’t know what he/she is doing.
or
b) Mutagens that can be be used by ANYONE without extra knowledge (obtain mutagen, drink/inject, PROFIT) and (depending on how the mutagen was “refined” to do only specific mutations) have no real drawbacks besides some strain on the body.

Now why weren’t they used yet? Simple: The cataclysm happend before the mutagens reached the “final stage” (usability for broad masses). You can bet that as soon as the mutagens would have reached the “save to use” stage, they WOULD have been used (along with the typical propaganda about “Our new super- soldiers and workers surpass EVERYTHING China could ever create”)[/quote]

2. Do we have ANY proof about that? I’m using the already present facts: Rare Earth is used BECAUSE you CAN’T replace it and even if you could do it with artificial made materials: What do you think is more cost efficient? Digging up the rare earth or making a replacement that may take more raw materials, money and time?