Fine-Tuning of Firearms and Firearm Mods

[Austupaio]

While I love the variety of both firearms and the mods available for them in this game, there are times when I can tell that the dev responsible had no idea what he was on about. Sorry.

In example, the Extended Barrel modification. This increases the recoil of the modified weapon and this is justified in the description because it, apparently, makes the barrel vibrate.

If possible, I’d actually be interested in digging into the code and going over the firearms and mods with a fine comb myself, but this would obviously affect balance in certain ways.

Adding onto the Extended Barrel example, it should actually reduce recoil (I can explain why, if necessary) which would remove the mod’s negative and give it another positive therefore making the item far more valuable.

I could provide other examples of what’s wrong with firearms or their mods if requested.

[Flare]

Adding onto the Extended Barrel example, it should actually reduce recoil (I can explain why, if necessary) which would remove the mod’s negative and give it another positive therefore making the item far more valuable.

Please do.

[Austupaio]

Extending the barrel of a firearm should have the following effects.

Increased weight and volume; reasons are obvious, I am unsure if this happens currently.
Increased accuracy; due to more rifling being engaged and the barrel keeping the bullet steady for longer.
Reduced recoil; due to higher weapon mass and weight. In general the game seems to consistently imply that larger weapons have more recoil, this is false.

The heavier a weapon is, the more recoil it will absorb rather than pass it on to the shooter’s shoulder.

If you have two pistols that fire the same 9mm cartridge, the heavier gun will transfer less recoil to the shooter.

I do not see how a longer barrel could increase recoil, as the barrel ‘vibrating’ in non-sense.

I am actually unsure how much extending a barrel would affect muzzle velocity and therefore damage.

[pingpong]

Extending a barrel would flat-out increase muzzle velocity and damage, that’s like second-course chemistry/dynamics tier calculations (integrate over the pressure*area of the expanding gas as a function)

What would be interesting is if firearms had fall-off damage, to simulate air resistance and whatnot (I presume they do but more for balance reasons). On an SMG or something, the extended barrel would do more damage, but since air resistance is proportional to speed, it wouldn’t be so effective at longer ranges. Ultimately it would increase closer-range damage, and basically extend maximum useful range, but you should be doing like only the previous longest-range damage, and not the previous max + some bonus at far, but up close it could be disastrously more effective.

Maybe the extended barrel could be unthreaded, so it increases damage but reduces accuracy as a trade-off.

The recoil would be increased, if only slightly, as the increased mass wouldn’t overcome the increased force on the bullet. (i.e. 5% more mass vs 25% more bullet force).

[Slax]

Firearm construction working just like the vehicle screen. Mmmm…

[pingpong]

If anyone wants to level up their firearms, the current git build has slings using the firearms skill, pretty neat.

[Smoker]

Firearm construction working just like the vehicle screen. Mmmm…

Imagine being able to build tanks. Not reinforced trucks or such, but actual tanks, complete with 120mm cannons that you could turn around.

Or really long range artillery. Or Giant death rays. All of them complete with a chance to fatally malfunction.

Would take a hell of a lot of work to balance, probly, but it seems cool, I guess.

[pingpong]

Giant weaponry? You know we’d have to fight giant monsters. Maybe larger blocks, like a 3x3 colossus, or even two separate 4x4s, to simulate godzilla, if you spend too much time near an ocean. Fires giant mouth beams that scorch the landscape setting everything in the beam path on fire.

[xenotashin]

[quote=“pingpong, post:4, topic:1107”]Maybe the extended barrel could be unthreaded, so it increases damage but reduces accuracy as a trade-off.

The recoil would be increased, if only slightly, as the increased mass wouldn’t overcome the increased force on the bullet. (i.e. 5% more mass vs 25% more bullet force).[/quote]

I could be wrong but I don’t think the amount of recoil would increase at a noticeable level, as the recoil is also the amount of force being applied upon impact of the target. Now that being said I doubt their would be a serious damage increase (maybe a point or two), but it would increase the range and accuracy as the bullet is being kept on a linear course for a longer duration, if it rifled properly that is. Though all in all it comes down to how much your extending the barrel by. I’ll ask my gun expert when I see him next time to confirm if what any of us has said is accurate.

[pingpong]

Better than speculation:

http://honors.usf.edu/documents/Thesis/U82488180.pdf

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

[Flare]

Extending a barrel would flat-out increase muzzle velocity and damage, that’s like second-course chemistry/dynamics tier calculations (integrate over the pressure*area of the expanding gas as a function)

Would this apply to bows with a longer draw distance compared to one with a shorter distance?

[Grackle]

Extending a barrel shouldn’t increase recoil, but Barrel Harmonics are real thing. If anything, “tuning” should be it’s own mod to increase accuracy.

Here is a link for people who care about this stuff:

[xenotashin]

[quote=“pingpong, post:4, topic:1107”]Extending a barrel would flat-out increase muzzle velocity and damage, that’s like second-course chemistry/dynamics tier calculations (integrate over the pressure*area of the expanding gas as a function)

Would this apply to bows with a longer draw distance compared to one with a shorter distance?[/quote]

Just read comment below. I misread the question.

[pingpong]

[quote=“pingpong, post:4, topic:1107”]Extending a barrel would flat-out increase muzzle velocity and damage, that’s like second-course chemistry/dynamics tier calculations (integrate over the pressure*area of the expanding gas as a function)

Would this apply to bows with a longer draw distance compared to one with a shorter distance?[/quote]

With bows one can’t really compare because 1) Draw distance correlates to energy stored in the draw (tension per length and whatnot, lrn2trig) and 2) the only energy wasted in the bow would be kinetic energy of the string leftover as the string passes it’s 0 displacement mark, which would presumably be so little, and there isn’t a way to harvest more of it, compared to a gun where pressure that remains in the gun after the bullet leaves still could produce some force greater than friction, assuming a barrel shorter than where the friction force is greater than the propelling force.

[Austupaio]

Extending a barrel would flat-out increase muzzle velocity and damage, that’s like second-course chemistry/dynamics tier calculations (integrate over the pressure*area of the expanding gas as a function)

Muzzle velocity =/= Damage.
Just because a bullet is moving more quickly does not imply that it will do more damage to a target.

Maybe the extended barrel could be unthreaded, so it increases damage but reduces accuracy as a trade-off.

I've never seen a barrel sold unthreaded, so I'm not sure that's a better direction to take it.

[KA101]

JA2 had a “Barrel Extension” that was a pipe glued & duct-taped to the firearm’s muzzle. (Was permanent once installed.) Since all the components are also present in Cata, making such a craftable would indeed merit increasing punch/range at the expense of accuracy.

Now, if the barrel extensions are pre-cataclysm commercially manufactured units, I’d agree that they ought to be threaded.

[xenotashin]

Then why not have multiple grades of weapon mods. 1 being scrap which barely function like a beer can silencer, 2 being the slightly better than scrap but still has that garage manufactured feel, and 3 being professional grade parts but can be created after much skill accumulation.

[Austupaio]

That actually reminds me. I want to separate the suppressor you get from a gun store and the suppressor you make out of a pipe and some rags.

There’s such a vast difference in quality there that they should be separate objects.

[Sheb]

I for one wouldn’t mind if the gun mods had the same kind of diversity the guns have.

[Sloot]

I don’t know much about physics but I know that a carbine version of a rifle hits just as hard as the full length version. I think the Mosin Nagant 91/30 vs its carbine the M44 illustrates that well because the only major difference is barrel length. A 7.62x54r will hurt you just as bad out of either, the longer barrel just means that it’s more accurate at long range. In the game perhaps that sort of advantage could be balance by making longer guns more awkward to handle in close quarters, so you’d want a carbine for indoors or if the zombies were right up on you. Also, Mosins should definitely be added since they and their ammo are extremely common.