Filthy clothes?

Game Talk The Bunker
21

I like the filthy clothes mechanic. It mostly just lets me ignore/cut apart everything zombies drop without thinking too much over it, but keeps me sharp for specific things I want to keep and are worth the hassle (filthy MOLLE pack? Sure, I’ll clean that). Right now it mostly just serves as an extra barrier to using zombie drops (kill->obtain->repair->fit->wash), but there’s more than enough clothing in houses that I haven’t felt the need to wear filthy items, even in my Really Bad Day playthroughs.

I know people are calling for changes/removal to it, but all I can add to the “change” category would be maybe a filthy debuff on a character instead of just on items, like wetness. Boomer pukes on you, or you fight slimes, or you wear nasty clothes? Congrats, you’re x amount of filthy and unhappy until you scrub a little, or stand out in the rain for a while. Wet debuff could actually counteract filthy debuff with this concept, so for example you could be more willing to melee a boomer if it’s raining. There’s several bits of weirdness to that idea, but I like it simply because it allows for more monster attacks that you want to avoid but aren’t immediately fatal.

22

In dnd, you can’t loot everything off of monsters, why should you in cataclysm :stuck_out_tongue:

23

Well, they are still different games, so wrong analogy there.

Ok.
Just by checking all of the replies i think we most agree that the mechanic is good, it just needs to be a little more manageable rather than just the washboard. You know, just flesh it out a little more. After all, there are lots of cleaning products in the game!

1 Like
24

I would suggest that as a washboard alternative, some sort of pre-mixed ‘cleaner liquid’ (with varying crafting options using different materials like soap, disinfectant, bleach, hydrogen peroxide, oxidizer powder and of course some clean water)

You then activate you container of ‘cleaning liquid’ on clothes, use another measure of water (assumed to be for rinsing) and boom, the more modern alternative to ye awld washboard. Often found under the kitchen sink, laundromats, your chemical aisle of the local supermarket.

Perhaps for fun also be toss grenades of the stuff as a puddled ‘slipping hazard’ (janitor was my favorite profession in my days of Space Station 13.)

25

I’d be happy if we made soap easier to get and reduce the volume of water, or maybe simplify out the washboard or soap requirements (I forget who mentioned it but a rag or towel and water sounds pretty reasonable.) It’s the apocalypse, I’d hate to wear filthy zombie clothes but I don’t need squeaky-clean fresh-smelling ones either :v

Or maybe we could just take it out? Honestly I thought that the tailoring bottleneck for using zombie clothes was good enough. Before I kinda figured that whatever filth the clothes got on them while the zombies were wearing them was cleaned off as part of the repair process, anyway.

I think that a removal mod is in order here, albeit with the mechanic still fixed to be less disruptive.

26

On the other hand, if we could completely wash dirty clothes with just a splash of dirty water, wouldn’t that be too easy? Wouldn’t that make the thing even more pointless?

I would allow bleach only on 100% cotton or plastic clothing. Everything else it would just ruin irreversibly (that I can think of). Leather, neoprene… ruined. Wool not sure.

But I see the problem being that there is
A) Only one degree of filthyness and
B) ALL zed clothes come tagged as ‘filthy’, as opposed to just few, some or most of them.

Let us have three degrees of clothing filthyness - bit dirty, filthy, very filthy. Each with varying degrees of morale penalty, and whatever other unseen penalties they might bring. Wound infection? Diseases? Strong odor? Less odor aka scent masking?

At the very least I would then expect that you could wash ‘very filthy’ clothing down to ‘filthy’ with just ample dirty water, or even down to ‘bit dirty’, but to remove ‘bit dirty’ you would need soap, bleach, or whatever detergent. Hell, I would try shampoo, dish soap, or dish washer soap. Any cleaning reagent really.

And while at that, implement dirtyness levels and statuses on water too, so that contained laundry water becomes increasingly dirty as clothes are being washed in it - clean water, dirty water, septic water (sewage?), soapy water, chemically contaminated water. One could even go full sci-fi and use percentages for levels of chemical, material or microbial contamination, and then dilute them accordingly when various waters are mixed.

Water: 1% microbial contaminants, 4% chemical contaminants, 2% fine particle contaminants (sand, dust)
Yikes. Would not want to drink that. One might need fractions of percent.

Next up, contemplate various water purification methods for changing these statuses.

27

Sigh, this mechanic is the last straw really. Over the last year CDDA has been moving towards more and more tedium. Some I can understand, even enjoy, but this filthy mechanic just pads out run time via grinding. Even with correction towards the morale penalty effect to avoid wear-unwear clothes exploit and the other complain regarding soap being rare, this feature basically just pads out maybe the first few months or so by asking the player to do more things to get to mid-late game.

What’s next? Maybe having to craft a drying pole to dry your wet clothes? Perhaps actual shower, urinate, and defecate mechanic?
On that note remove the ability to fast heal, fast learn, nightvision, etc pls, they are unrealistic. Oh bandage and every medical supplies should also heal the wound over time. A deep cut that bought you to brink of death should take weeks to heal after all. Any other idea?

28

I’m pushing for its removal. We have a proposed fix that would unfuck it. And even if it doesn’t unfuck it, it will come with a mod to disable the mechanic completely.

29

I’m mostly in the “get rid of it” camp as well. If it was a good idea with bad implementation I’d be all for taking a constructive approach and expending the feature to make it better. The problem is that its the opposite. The idea is bad, and the implementation is as good as it can get. No amount of tweaking is going to make it better. In fact the big change that gets the most talked about (having an increased infection chance on the body part where the dirty clothes are) actually makes the feature MORE redundant.

E.g.

I find a Kevlar Vest on the corpse of a zombie policeman pre filthy update:

Wow! A Kevlar Vest! That will be useful later! Not going to wear it now though because it might break the next time it gets hit, it borks my torso encumbrance because it doesn’t fit, and I don’t have the skill or material to fix and fit it yet.

Now lets look at how different my thought process and playstyle are post filthy update:

Wow! A Kevlar Vest! That will be useful later! Not going to wear it now though because it might infect me or break the next time it gets hit, it borks my torso encumbrance because it doesn’t fit, makes crafting harder, and I don’t have the skill or material to fix it yet.

I mean, look at that. Thats a whole two more reasons for me to not wear the piece of equipment that I wasn’t going to wear to begin with. And the the actual washing process is just exhilarating too. The extra day of sitting around waiting for my water supply to refill before I commit to the lab raid that I needed those dirty light amp goggles for to begin with totally has a positive effect on my game experience.

Seriously though. This is game design 101 stuff. In fact its such a ridiculously obvious and basic mistake that even 4 year old children playing house don’t make it. (you never hear them talk about cleaning up their imaginary dog’s poo etc.) The mechanic is redundant. No amount of added penalties or tweaking to the existing ones is going to make it less redundant. Because it’s redundant, it is boring. Because it’s boring, it is bad game design. It needs to go. But what do any of us plebs know? We’re apparently all butthurt because the update ruined the clothing we were wearing when the feature was added.

30

^ Well said! You even convinced me otherwise on many points but there’s one thing I completely disagree with you. IMO the idea wasn’t bad, but the implementation was the worst. It’s just so unrefined to make all clothes filthy OR clean, a completely binary state, and then have only one way of cleaning them up - soap, of all things.

Infinite water is however in many places. City pools, mansion pools, rivers, ponds, swamps. Even firetrucks. Water availability is not the problem. Never has been, never will be. Transportation is the problem, whether we’re talking about transporting the player to the water, or the water to the player.

I acknowledge the “waiting the barrels to fill” problem. The barrels should continue to fill outside the reality bubble according to weather at the barrel’s location. That is the problem. The more I think about it, the rigidity of the Reality Bubble might be a huge issue.

And as usual, this, filthy clothes, not being a mod, that too might be a problem, although I hesitate to say it. Can we really think about making every new feature optional just in fear that the feature will not be well received? Or is it better to wait for the players to rebel and then offer the New Thing as a mod? Is it possible on the dev side to keep both options open during development? Should the playerbase be surveyed first before adding a (non-spoilery) feature?

31

Most features no.
But features that are highly restrictive in some horrible way should be phased in slowly instead of becoming the default just like that.
For example, additional crafting phases, additional crafting requirements, making a common craft uncraftable etc.

Fidgeting with “just a bit filthy” states would be horrible. Cleaning actually being restrictive is itself a good idea, because otherwise it would be a pure chore to clean things up. Strict restrictions are better than chores.
There isn’t much that can be done with the implementation. Everything that includes morale penalty for wearing filthy clothing is just an attempt to polish the turd that is morale penalty for wearing filthy clothing.

32

Honestly I quite like a bit of filth, but it honestly needs to blend better with the rest of the game, rather than just be some binary “It’s zombie clothing” thing.

Clothing would need a Clean, [blank], Dirty, and Filthy tag, much like foodstuffs have Fresh, [blank], Old, Rotten. Only clothes worn as clothing can be dirty one way or another. Filthy Leather Belts and ankle sheathes are silly, as are filthy elbow pads. Filthier the item, the more noticeable the stench, and maybe a greater chance of developing a distracting itch.

Dirt could accumulate over time while being worn, decrease in the rain and swimming. Unworn items would slowly become cleaner over time while exposed to the elements.

Cleaning agents should include vinegar, bleach, ammonia, lye and salt, and clean all filthy items should be a % menu batch command taking 1 [cleaning agent]/1 water apiece.

Alternatively, move all actual effects onto the player character itself, and let them get dirty over time.

Clean: +Morale bonus for wearing all clean clothing. Small Health bonus over time for staying clean. Scent footprint decreased.
[blank]: Base default state.
Dirty: Player’s scent increases.
Filthy: Increases player’s scent further, and has a small morale and health penalty over time for being filthy, making them more susceptible to illness and infections as a result of their lowered health stat.

The player can clean up to [blank] with walking in the rain or swimming, or activate soap to become clean (requires 1 nearby water, consumed)

In this system, wearing filthy clothes could simply increase the speed at which the player gets dirty, and being filthy could increase the speed at which clothes get dirty, which couldn’t be “gamed” by just removing filthy clothing.

Intuitive: Don’t wear filthy clothes, don’t jump in slime pits, take an occasional dip in water to prevent getting stinky.
Low impact: Health penalties and scent are largely invisible to the player, so they can safely ignore them or enjoy an occasional boost to help keep them happy and healthy.
Immersive: Though admittedly I think the player should be able to create their own fertiliser and ammonia, so possibly this only matters to me.

33

[quote=“Pantalion, post:32, topic:12072”]Honestly I quite like a bit of filth, but it honestly needs to blend better with the rest of the game, rather than just be some binary “It’s zombie clothing” thing.

Clothing would need a Clean, [blank], Dirty, and Filthy tag, much like foodstuffs have Fresh, [blank], Old, Rotten. Only clothes worn as clothing can be dirty one way or another. Filthy Leather Belts and ankle sheathes are silly, as are filthy elbow pads. Filthier the item, the more noticeable the stench, and maybe a greater chance of developing a distracting itch.

Dirt could accumulate over time while being worn, decrease in the rain and swimming. Unworn items would slowly become cleaner over time while exposed to the elements.

Cleaning agents should include vinegar, bleach, ammonia, lye and salt, and clean all filthy items should be a % menu batch command taking 1 [cleaning agent]/1 water apiece.

Alternatively, move all actual effects onto the player character itself, and let them get dirty over time.

Clean: +Morale bonus for wearing all clean clothing. Small Health bonus over time for staying clean. Scent footprint decreased.
[blank]: Base default state.
Dirty: Player’s scent increases.
Filthy: Increases player’s scent further, and has a small morale and health penalty over time for being filthy, making them more susceptible to illness and infections as a result of their lowered health stat.

The player can clean up to [blank] with walking in the rain or swimming, or activate soap to become clean (requires 1 nearby water, consumed)

In this system, wearing filthy clothes could simply increase the speed at which the player gets dirty, and being filthy could increase the speed at which clothes get dirty, which couldn’t be “gamed” by just removing filthy clothing.

Intuitive: Don’t wear filthy clothes, don’t jump in slime pits, take an occasional dip in water to prevent getting stinky.
Low impact: Health penalties and scent are largely invisible to the player, so they can safely ignore them or enjoy an occasional boost to help keep them happy and healthy.
Immersive: Though admittedly I think the player should be able to create their own fertiliser and ammonia, so possibly this only matters to me.[/quote]

If this was implemented I would just straight up quit playing the game. Having the clothes my character wears require washing every few days is 1000 times worse than the feature is in it’s current state.

34

In its current state, you must find some wood, craft an item, find a semi-rare expendable, and activate it once per item of clothing that needs to be cleaned.

It’s nothing more than a one-time chore that can easily be gamed around, and can be bypassed without any trouble whatsoever. Filthy Cleansuit? Filthy Kevlar vest? Clean, usable AEP suit, of course. Rotten Egg + Fresh Vegetables? Rotten Scrambled eggs.

With the suggestion above, once or twice per season you would need to press %, C while standing near or carrying a water source… Or just step in a water tile.

That’s maybe four key-presses per season, with extra rewards if you find soap, but no penalties.

Honestly, it takes me around eight key-presses every time I want to boil up some clean water (I’d love to see that in the % menu), so I’m not sure how you’d consider this to be significantly worse, particularly when this would include an implicit “simplified hygiene” mod as already mentioned earlier in the thread.

35

I like the idea

36

[quote=“SpadeDraco, post:33, topic:12072”][quote=“Pantalion, post:32, topic:12072”]stuff and stuff and more stuff

The player can clean up to [blank] with walking in the rain or swimming, or activate soap to become clean (requires 1 nearby water, consumed)

also more stuff[/quote]

If this was implemented I would just straight up quit playing the game. Having the clothes my character wears require washing every few days is 1000 times worse than the feature is in it’s current state.[/quote]

Seriously, you don’t end up out in the rain on a weekly basis in this game? That one suggestion makes the whole thing essentially moot… and it’s a reasonable suggestion, really, so I think the whole thing should probably just be removed.

37

I think the bigger problem here is that moral penalties in their current implementation suck.

It’s always been that if your moral drops too low, you’ll refuse to do even some of the most basic tasks necessary for survival, like boiling water or checking the components needed to craft something later on.

Like you go up to the oven, load some 2x4’s into it, light the fire, and… “I don’t feel like it.”

Seriously!?! What are you going to do? Eat the salt and powdered eggs instead of making them into broth? “Whatever, I stepped in a puddle.”

= (

But I pat myself with a towel and everything is good again.

Some issue with filthy gear. Same issue with any moral penalty after the early-game. Once you have a few items that boost happiness, moral becomes a non issue when it shouldn’t be like that.

Honestly, bad moral and good moral should build up over time. Your clothing being dirty shouldn’t even cross your mind if there’s a horde of zombies bearing down on you! It should matter over time however, and it should be a re-occuring problem that isn’t hand waved away just because you found some toilet water to run over you shirt.

The problem is that there is very little to no transition between somebody who is depressed because they where caught in the rain wearing soiled pants and eating boiled coyote intestines, to super drunk spazzing out on cocaine-mex-tacy with every flavor of potato chip, pop-tart, and mutated alien mutant berry that makes you magic fungus into existence, moral meter is just over the top. Don’t forget chocolate and fruit waffles and pancakes.

No transition! Very little consistency. Just insane spikes and drops everywhere.

Everything and anything you base off of the moral system is going to be terrible until the moral system itself is improved to be of consequence, instead of just annoying. Because right now, all it is, is annoying.

38

[quote=“Labtop_215, post:37, topic:12072”]I think the bigger problem here is that moral penalties in their current implementation suck.

It’s always been that if your moral drops too low, you’ll refuse to do even some of the most basic tasks necessary for survival, like boiling water or checking the components needed to craft something later on.

Like you go up to the oven, load some 2x4’s into it, light the fire, and… “I don’t feel like it.”

Seriously!?! What are you going to do? Eat the salt and powdered eggs instead of making them into broth? “Whatever, I stepped in a puddle.”

= (

But I pat myself with a towel and everything is good again.

Some issue with filthy gear. Same issue with any moral penalty after the early-game. Once you have a few items that boost happiness, moral becomes a non issue when it shouldn’t be like that.

Honestly, bad moral and good moral should build up over time. Your clothing being dirty shouldn’t even cross your mind if there’s a horde of zombies bearing down on you! It should matter over time however, and it should be a re-occuring problem that isn’t hand waved away just because you found some toilet water to run over you shirt.

The problem is that there is very little to no transition between somebody who is depressed because they where caught in the rain wearing soiled pants and eating boiled coyote intestines, to super drunk spazzing out on cocaine-mex-tacy with every flavor of potato chip, pop-tart, and mutated alien mutant berry that makes you magic fungus into existence, moral meter is just over the top. Don’t forget chocolate and fruit waffles and pancakes.

No transition! Very little consistency. Just insane spikes and drops everywhere.

Everything and anything you base off of the moral system is going to be terrible until the moral system itself is improved to be of consequence, instead of just annoying. Because right now, all it is, is annoying.[/quote]

I disagree with you that filthy clothes are bad because the morale system is bad. Filthy clothes are bad because they act as a time sink and not a method of correcting balance or generating fun.

That said… I wholeheartedly agree with everything you’ve said about the morale system itself. Especially the “I can’t make the things I need to survive because I got rained on a bit and had to eat an unheated pop-tart.” stuff. In fact I don’t think anyone else could have summarized it as well as you did here. I’d like to add that current morale system is very unfriendly to RP (my mathematics\computer enthusiast should LIKE reading SICP etc.)

39

Seams like we’ve moved between extremes, with reality somewhere in the middle. First, water alone goes a long way in cleaning clothes. With just water you can get perfectly functional clothes. Cleaning supplies go a long way of course in removing stains and speeding up the process. Second, soap, shampoo, detergent, etc should be found almost everywhere. It should be in almost every kitchen, bathroom, etc. Third, not every piece of zombie clothing should be dirty and not every piece of clothing in houses should be clean.

Some random ideas, including some that have already bean mentioned. Maybe a few will be useful :confused:

  • Clean clothes without soap but with time penalty
  • or mostly clean clothes with just water
  • Soap found in almost every house.
  • Clothes get cleaner in rain / water
  • Random chance that zombie clothes are clean
  • Random chance that house clothes are dirty (higher chance in stoner houses)
  • Higher chance that outer layer zombie clothes are clean
  • Provide bulk cleaning option
  • Working laundry machines?
  • Mod to disable
40

Considering what zombies are known to do (beat people to death, then dismember and/or eat them), I’d say you have that exactly backwards - the outer layer stuff is the stuff that should be caked in filth. The inner layer should have a chance of just being typical human worn - possibly a bit sweaty, etc, but not necessarily bathed in human entrails or anything.