Dual wield

Not if you shoot one hand at a time, one recovers while the other aims…[/quote]

I’m not sure about you, but I can barely scratch out writing with my left hand. Unless you can aim and recover from recoil faster than the firing mechanism in the gun can be ready again to shoot another bullet, I don’t think there’s much advantage to using two guns instead of focusing on one, and having an extended ammunition mod for it.

Not that I oppose letting people dual wield in the game of course, it’s likely something that characters with absolutely no firearms experience will try do, and do incredibly badly.

Dual-wielding guns is dumb. Vote against. At the very least, don’t bother with a complicated system for firing at multiple targets simultaneously, just allow focus fire on a single target, and let the trajectory mechanics for extra inaccuracy/missing/overpenetration handle any possible hits to neighboring zed. Yes, even for inhuman mutants with extra arms and such. Dual-wielding melee weapons, or even just adding shields, has more potential, since it’s actually a thing that is feasible. Particularly since it implies another ‘hand’ slot, which is intriguing. Even so, still vote against attacking multiple enemies at once, except maybe with martial weapon styles that do ‘whirlwind’ attacks.

So you think that doing a ‘whirlwind’ attack is perfectly normal but that dual-wielding pistols is impossible.

I do agree, though, dual wielding shouldn’t allow you to aim at two different targets, it would be more complicated to add and would be too ‘gunfu’.

Ohey guys.
Don’t forget about the Main Gauche

mainly used as an off-hand to a sword for parrying and such. Also stabbing.

[quote=“Austupaio, post:43, topic:1268”]So you think that doing a ‘whirlwind’ attack is perfectly normal but that dual-wielding pistols is impossible.

I do agree, though, dual wielding shouldn’t allow you to aim at two different targets, it would be more complicated to add and would be too ‘gunfu’.[/quote]

Except that burst fire already allows you to aim at two different targets. I don’t mean two targets near each other, it’s literally bullet time where you get to shoot x number of shots at any or all targets within range, even if they’re in opposite directions. Even targets you can’t normally target (even if you can see them due to clairvoyance), like smoke zombies, can be hit by the secondary shots.

And seriously, do people care about realism that much? We’ve got portals to Phobos spawning Cacodemons and whatnot. We’ve got artifacts that can make you invisible, let you see through walls, or shoot fireballs. And even the more down-to-earth stuff like crafting isn’t realistic at all. Making a crossbow out of a 2x4 and rubber hose? As someone mentioned in another thread, that’s just a crossbow-shaped slingshot. At least the slingshot recipe is realistic.

Now before you say something like, “We accept zombies and Cacodemons and X-Men mutations and bionic implants and magical artifacts as part of the Cataclysm universe which is given, but normal humans are not capable of dual-wielding pistols so that breaks immersion,” we already have eye mutations as well as eye bionics. If players shouldn’t be able to dual-wield pistols “straight out of the box,” that doesn’t rule out a mutation or bionic giving them the necessary dexterity and coordination to do so.

Dual-wielding pistols is not unrealistic for the same reason dual-wielding melee weapons is not unrealistic in this scenario. Dual-wielding melee weapons against a human foe would be very difficult and require lots of practice and training. People fight back. That wild swing you made with your off-hand because you’re not ambidextrous? Your opponent sees that as an opportunity. But zombies aren’t human, they aren’t cunning, and they don’t see opportunities. They don’t defend, they only attack, so any clumsiness with your off-hand isn’t likely to make a huge difference as long as you can hit them, which is to say, as long as you can hit a human-sized target moving at slow to moderate speed in a very predictable fashion. Similarly, dual-wielding pistols against a human foe would be stupid, since any benefit gained from additional rate of fire or ammunition will be more than canceled out by lack of accuracy. This is because hitting a human target is already difficult. Humans don’t stand still, and when faced with a gun, only a fool would rush straight at you. That second pistol will do you a lot of good when he’s hiding behind cover taking potshots at you, or running away in a zigzag pattern, or shooting at you while prone. Hitting that target would be difficult with your main-hand pistol, let alone off-hand. But against zombies? That second pistol doubles your ammunition. It allows you to shoot in 2 directions at once. Yes, doing so would not be very accurate. Hitting a human target would likely be impossible, but not because of the accuracy penalty. It’s because humans aren’t stupid enough to just stand there and let you shoot them. Zombies are. Zombies are the exact opposite of what humans are. They’re slow. They’re stupid. They have no fear or survival instinct. And they outnumber you. They’re your primary threat and it’s not unreasonable to dual-wield against them because they’re not human and don’t act human, thus the tactics used for fighting humans don’t apply. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to be able to dual-wield, pistols or otherwise.

i was going to bring this up. it’s unrealistic, but we have zombies etc etc etc. realism at this point is moot.

the only problem NOW is balance. 2 guns are better than one for purpose of a turn based roguelike. how can we balance something that breaks other forms of play and makes them worthless WITHOUT making dual wielding worthless as well?

I feel confident duel wielding will be added in the future, but as of now the combat system isn’t nearly complete enough to handle something like this.

(the above comments are complete speculation and opinion.)

I don’t like dual wielding. Not because it’s unrealistic, but because it’s been done to death and I find it quite lame.

I don’t care for it either but i’m not adverse to having it in the game and other people use it. I don’t like light strips but here they are!

more options = more fun in my book. have at em

i was going to bring this up. it’s unrealistic, but we have zombies etc etc etc. realism at this point is moot.[/quote]

As far as I can take away from the game, it’s as unrealistic as possible when it is trying to kill you and make your life hard, and as realistic as possible to make your survival a bitch.

Que every single thing that can kill you being present in the game, and make boiling water requiring you to run into a town where half of everything that can kill you is waiting because you didn’t put that point into survival at the beginning.

i was going to bring this up. it’s unrealistic, but we have zombies etc etc etc. realism at this point is moot.[/quote]

As far as I can take away from the game, it’s as unrealistic as possible when it is trying to kill you and make your life hard, and as realistic as possible to make your survival a bitch.

Que every single thing that can kill you being present in the game, and make boiling water requiring you to run into a town where half of everything that can kill you is waiting because you didn’t put that point into survival at the beginning.[/quote]

This my friend is cataclysm. the lack of logic is seconded only by dwarves for only they truly know how to break the world.

BEST IDEA

There’s a fairly easy way to balance this, and half of it is already in the game. First, an off-hand accuracy penalty (they could add an ambidexterity perk to cancel this). Second, recoil, which is already in the game. Recoil from each pistol should be cumulative and affect BOTH pistols (they could even add in an additional multiplier as a further penalty). Thus, while you can increase your rate of fire (inaccurately), you are also doubling the effects of recoil, increasing recoil on your main-hand for the minor benefit of being able to shoot inaccurately with your off-hand.

The important thing here is that this is a choice with benefits and drawbacks. For realism’s sake, there probably should not be many situations in which dual-wielding pistols has a net benefit. But there should be some, because realistically there are some situations where the penalties to aiming and recoil would be overshadowed by the benefit of having twice the firepower.

Stuff discussed in this thread have me thinking, shouldnt pretty much EVERY single zombieform get no bonud or even a penalty to evasiveness. Given that they are zombies, i’d assume they don’t actually actively defend thenmselves, so…
also kiting, while (painfully) effective also seems to fall under the same idea for zombies, as a tactically viable idea makes no sense that a zombie dog would do that, especially as it conflicts even natural behavior of dogs.

back on the topic of akimbo… what about shields akimbo?

The only shields that this would be viable with is with small metal bucklers or small leather bound shields the size of a plate. It’d be essentially just a tiny bit better than boxing.

Yesterday download sources and do simple dual wield for handguns. In game recoil mechanism prevents very accurate shooting on big range, so the balance is OK, I think;)
When pass the exams try to finish it.

[quote=“Reaper, post:55, topic:1268”]Yesterday download sources and do simple dual wield for handguns. In game recoil mechanism prevents very accurate shooting on big range, so the balance is OK, I think;)
When pass the exams try to finish it.[/quote]Shouldn’t there have been an off hand holding system in place first, so items in off hand can be better managed to start?

iceball3
Not quite understand:)
I say, how did:
Bind 2 new keys:
-to swap items between main hand and offhand
-to switch fire in dual wield mode
Add offhand field to class “Player” at swap items item in main hand moving to offhand and item in offhand - in main hand.
To place item in offhand need wield item and swap items between hands.
Dual fire algorithm:
Fire (moves-=moves_for_fire/2)
Swap_weapons
Fire (moves-=moves_for_fire/2)

Shot with a 2xglock 19 : recoil prevent very accurate fire.
Make all it was pretty easy - was pleasantly surprised:)

What about close combat dual wield?
Offhand weapon may use for block (chance to block based on weapon volume, amount of blocks on melee skill) or for counterattack (chance and amout based on melee skill)

Uh, duel wielding firearms is definitely a no-no for me. Not only is it horridly inaccurate but it makes reloading and clearing malfunctions with a gun very difficult. The only time where holding two guns could be feasibly effective is if accuracy was a non-issue, such as engaging a target at nearly point blank or using shotguns if you’re built like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Even dual wielding melee weapons could be tricky, since not many people are all that dextrous with both of their hands. Only use for it that I can think of is for blocking or a backup to switch to your dominant hand if your primary weapon gets stuck.

Overall, I’m against duel wielding firearms being implemented. A big maybe to melee weaponry duel wielding. If the devs are actually considering it, I’d like to be able to use riot shields found in police stations, kite shields found in mansions, and the ability to craft my own shields using materials.

More so than a lack of congenital issues, it’s a very inefficient use of leverage, striking power, and reach than simply using a large two handed weapon. Most parries work because the person being parried would have to back off because going further would mean they open themselves up to counter attack, or the parry throwing off their balance. A zombie has no sense of self preservation that parrying an arm of their away would make them stop their attack.
You’re not fighting something that is looking after itself, has any sense of self preservation, or any understanding of tactics like the conservation of strength. Fancy fighting styles with elaborate blocks and parries meant to scare off an attack is a poor choice.

A two handed weapon would not only make use of the strength in both arms, but the stance is also such that you can throw a great deal more weight into your strike than the one in which you have to always be ready with one arm to parry.