[Discussion Thread] Thoughts on the C:DDA Design Outline

[kevin.granade]

I think the clearest way to put it is this is a limitation of the crafting system. New industrially produced items might be acquirable in some limited fashion via a robot factory, replicator, biotech device, but they would be special cases as opposed to simply adding a crafting recipe with the requisite tools and components.

[ArgusTheCat]

I think that’s a great idea, factory might not last forever before breaking down but gives a use for computer-skill characters and allows another character to make 2,000 flashlights in addition to the 2,000 already in the factory store-room because why the hell not, right?

The ‘artisan crafting’ thing kicks in afterward, when you build a vehicle-mounted flashlight cannon.

Oh, holy shit! Maybe there could be some kind of enemy that only comes out at night and is damaged by light, and you could actually build a gun that shoots flashlights! The more ‘practical’ (he says, with complete sincerity) version could be a machine gun that shoots glowsticks, so you don’t have to use batteries! Okay, I’ll be right back, I need to go learn how to make a mod.

[vultures]

A gazillion thumbs up for this effort, and the discussion topic too. (!) I’ll be reading the fine googel-prynt long, long into the nite so expect me soon; bearing ideas of course.
Where do I squeeze in 0.A playtime? Oh Lord, it’s a curse!

[vultures]

Well, I can say I’m also up-to-pace regarding just about anything wrapped to look like the Outline that’s been agreed upon.
Also, I must add it’s contents are admirable at least, moreso I’m pleased - if not more than that; the in-depth perspective on CataDDA_world, very well thought-of and reasonable goes as a must-read for any and everyone looking to get involved with RLs in development. It’s also good material coverage for those who suggest Lovecraftian mythos should feel (may sound wrong when spoken, but it’s not) “imposing” on current efforts that concern fiction in general.

I do have some opinions overall that I’m about to share with all’y’alls.

I’ma leave mutations and their conseqences to the process-thinker of it all, for starters. It feels the included info in Design_Outline is to serve as a pointer and not experience, primarily because inside information (player feedback) is still being gathered to a point when it reaches a certain level needed for feature expansion. However, I must state these two (general) points of self-perspective:

1. “The Blob” is searching suitable hosts in order to adapt them, and the debris of its path of dominance are CataDDA mutations. It’s not hard to imagine the lineage of horror/nightmare-ish fantasy dwells on ancient scriptures and works of art combined, consisting of but not inclusive of religious experiences and lore, if you wish. In order to relief the stress of compromising with recognized social measures of such canons - with them being “evil” or not - and common demonology, even though when knowing they’re compromised with works of Tolkien and alike, one must also turn to nature’s mechanics upon trying to score something unique in the progress of making a fantasy piece. It’s not hard to perceive why the the first of those nature’s creatures to fall under influence of that which is “nether” are, in basis, nocturnal and parasitical in a manner. Evolving a creature of a bat’s nature perhaps is one of the finer examples for a starting point of design; it’s a firm ground basis for both habitat and “ether-disease” spreading modes of operation. Don’t feel derailed with certain bad examples in literature and cinema - and The Blob isn’t a daytime infestation that preys on the strongest (bears, for ex.).
2. Reading through the Raptor’s mutation outline I’ve noticed there’s no predatorial equality in the “tiny world” of bugs. I can agree that wasps are a very dangerous entity that balance out spider mutations. It’s the ants that are unmatched when we discuss their mandibles and protection. They easily find their nemesis (being they’re so numerous) amongst more solitary types of insects that don’t lack tools of war; moreso such bugs make up their lack in numbers with size and sheer power.

I wish to make an extra round-up on Gear_Up and Noncraftables sections.
Besides utmost understanding of the rare-war-gear decline, mainly because it opens up a “grande” discussion over other types of rarities that “could be found in New England, but won’t be found” - I also have some sympathy for those who misunderstand “coolness” of in-game items and a self-centered wish to evolve from a decaying world, be it with a shiny ole’ gun. There’s been much, much discussion about books/knowledge and CataDDA so I’ll just cut to the chase: If the player finds some crazy’s notes on a WW1 Gatling manually operated gun, he/she should not be deprived of choice towards playing a little iron soldier in the world of Cataclysm. Knowing that, all those ticked-off concepts could have some place within the “extra” content this project’s aiming for.
Now, regarding those hard-to-obtain, top-of-the-line hardware coded BLUE for NONE; I’ve been doing some research on my own (as you might’ve well suspected), and I feel you have to know two major facts:

1. Endless supply of anything in a game means that the particular game’s orientation shifts slightly in that direction. Power armors, for example, are obtained by the US army of the time in STOCK numbers. This means that the resources for scrapping/repairing some are limited, yet obtainable. I feel these, and some chemical products that’ve bounced off prohibited use towards general population must have had some sort of a supply line before cataclysm. Same goes for solar panels, end-tier engines etc. that depend on uncommon resources and product/service lines. Must I note that small enterprizes offer product-line upgrades and services of the same, even today? It mustn’t be hard to imagine a basement crammed with batches for such a specific purpose, if you know that access to such places of business is restricted to majority of regular users.
2. Hoarding and line-production have a common thing in particular, that is known as Industrial Power Outlet. Nearly every metropolitan area has one today, but tomorrow when it’s defunct - a fresh stockpile of high-end tools and products is next to impossible. But as we all progress in this world, some things eventually give in - like microbrews in the last two or three decades, or industrial-grade precision lasers 5 years ago, today and absolutely - tomorrow. Therefore, if a player goes to such great lengths to obtain the means to generate enough power, and surplus, to operate a small yet efficient workshop, he/she should be able do repair and upgrade on the existing equipment. It is not an opinion based on the suspicion of current (future) techs that could be utilized to the full extent (nanotechnology, molecular biology), but the exploit of accessible and spot-evident machines and tools that, without sufficient power input, lack any operational value ATM.

May I also add that before this, survival genre, there was an adventure genre. It offered loads of ideas along with its traits; concepts forgotten or left to be, it’s echo still lingers: “To venture into the unknown, and accomplish the unachievable.” Let us all ignite our brainstorming circuits on that one.

[Patto]

I agree with what Vulture is saying.

But there needs to be more options for sustainable players. e.g. Slowly re-spawning creatures in static spawn. E.g. Rabbits and squirrels reproduce relatively quickly, whilst wolves reproduce relatively slowly. I have run out of food in some areas.

Farming NEEDS to be improved.

Areas with high amounts of near useless rubbish would be good. Recycling centres would be a good place for human refuse, or landfill sites.

More sustainable vehicles, fuel will run out. So we either need the option of creating fuel (bio generator, add raw crops, get fuel out), or the addition of pack animals, e.g. Ridable horses (which will need to be fed, e.g. grass, hay), along with carts.

It just seems that if you want to play the game you need to become a military equipped mutant Rambo. I myself would rather play as Joe Bloggs, who has been left deep in a shit-filled world and needs to survive. Just think about it, the average person would be running away from zombies every time they saw one. Where’s that more ‘realistic’ side of people and the means to live that way.

[Binky]

[quote=“Patto, post:25, topic:5277”]I agree with what Vulture is saying.

But there needs to be more options for sustainable players. e.g. Slowly re-spawning creatures in static spawn. E.g. Rabbits and squirrels reproduce relatively quickly, whilst wolves reproduce relatively slowly. I have run out of food in some areas.

Farming NEEDS to be improved.

Areas with high amounts of near useless rubbish would be good. Recycling centres would be a good place for human refuse, or landfill sites.

More sustainable vehicles, fuel will run out. So we either need the option of creating fuel (bio generator, add raw crops, get fuel out), or the addition of pack animals, e.g. Ridable horses (which will need to be fed, e.g. grass, hay), along with carts.

It just seems that if you want to play the game you need to become a military equipped mutant Rambo. I myself would rather play as Joe Bloggs, who has been left deep in a shit-filled world and needs to survive. Just think about it, the average person would be running away from zombies every time they saw one. Where’s that more ‘realistic’ side of people and the means to live that way.[/quote]

While I too really want DDA to expand the survival/realism side more, I think that (without having a very complex DF like system) creating completely self-sustainable environments would lead to the game becoming pretty boring fast. The player needs to have something to risk themselves for (gas, food, so on) or it’d become stale after an hour or two as they can just get everything they need whilst they level up to infinity and beyond. Even with roving hordes/raiding npcs, it’d still become way to easy for the player to build a fortress and never need to come out (or you’d have to make the attackers mega strong, which would unbalance things for non-fortress type players)

I think we just need to tone everything down a bit, so less of the mutant rambo (until much later on) and more of the survival type stuff.

[CIB]

Even with roving hordes/raiding npcs, it’d still become way to easy for the player to build a fortress and never need to come out (or you’d have to make the attackers mega strong, which would unbalance things for non-fortress type players)

I agree with you in general, but I think it should actually be possible to “settle down” and gain a lot of benefits. The one important disadvantage is that you can’t just up and run whenever something beyond your skills to kill appears. I think this balances things out.

If NPCs ever start working properly, I believe we could also have a system where a faction has both people tending to the fortress, and people going out on scavenging missions/raids. In such a setup, the player would have a lot of freedom in which activity to focus on.

[argast]

I think a goal should be an option. There should be a forever mode, where there is no goal, which is already implemented, and a goal mode where the user chooses a goal or is assigned one.

Why ? Because the game gets boring fast without a goal, and is not as memorable as it would be with a goal, IMO. This would also keep people that don’t want a goal happy because they can use the forever mode. I think this single change will increase the popularity of the game. Also, all rogue-likes I’ve ever played (except this one) have had a goal … kill the boss on level 99, bring his heart up, get an item at level 99, bring it up, etc.

EDIT:
Possible goals:
Collect parts to build a space ship and fly to the secret gov’t base on the moon.
Discover a cure for the zombie affliction, by collecting / researching ingredients.
Make it to the secret gov’t bunker deep underground.
Make a secure, fortified city with human inhabitants that you’ll have to find.

Technically, instead of a goal, these could be made into achievements and the game could just continue forever as it currently does.

[KA101]

[quote=“argast, post:28, topic:5277”]I think a goal should be an option. There should be a forever mode, where there is no goal, which is already implemented, and a goal mode where the user chooses a goal or is assigned one.

Why ? Because the game gets boring fast without a goal, and is not as memorable as it would be with a goal, IMO. This would also keep people that don’t want a goal happy because they can use the forever mode. I think this single change will increase the popularity of the game. Also, all rogue-likes I’ve ever played (except this one) have had a goal … kill the boss on level 99, bring his heart up, get an item at level 99, bring it up, etc.

EDIT:
Possible goals:
Collect parts to build a space ship and fly to the secret gov’t base on the moon.
Discover a cure for the zombie affliction, by collecting / researching ingredients.
Make it to the secret gov’t bunker deep underground.
Make a secure, fortified city with human inhabitants that you’ll have to find.

Technically, instead of a goal, these could be made into achievements and the game could just continue forever as it currently does.[/quote]

OK, so by “goal” you’re mostly meaning “successful end condition”. Those have come up from time to time.

We’ve even kicked around the possibility of the US having a space station off at a WAY FAR IN DEEP SPACE stable teleport point, which obviously would be the place to go when the Earth is messed up. (Except that it isn’t, what with the problem coming out of the portals and all.)

Idea was that the jump there would be one-way (power requirement, etc) and you’re more screwed there than you were on Earth, so I didn’t think much of it.

The lore already has a way to remove the Blob from corpses: teleporting has a small chance per teleport of leaving the Blob back in its home plane. (Once we implement the Nether Cliff teleporting would have a chance of purging your “infection” entirely.) Problem is, teleporting a lot in a short timeframe and small area tends to weaken the interdimensional boundaries, so you end up with more nether portals. Cure’s worse than the disease. Securing a stable two-way portal and passing your faction through it or something might be workable, though.

Meeting up with powerful factions seems like a good gamechanger but not necessarily an ending condition.

So yeah: decent ideas. I’m more fond of “significant game-changer” goals than “OK you’re done start a new character I Said Good Day!” ending conditions. Got a bit of RPer in me, I fear.

[i2amroy]

So yeah: decent ideas. I’m more fond of “significant game-changer” goals than “OK you’re done start a new character I Said Good Day!” ending conditions. Got a bit of RPer in me, I fear.

Agreed. My vote would be firmly against any sort of true “finish this and the game ends” type of goal.

(As for the deep space thing, I had always imagined that if you managed to fully clear out the place you could potentially set up a return portal, after all the politicians and scientists who designed it may have wanted to escape the apocalypse, but they would also want a way back for when the apocalypse finally settled down.)

[Darkfirephoenix]

No “HARD” goal for me too (game ending) unless in an Cenario or such stuff. And I share 90% of Vultures view. To be more exact: If you want to build an working factory with machines, needed resources, power and foremost TIME (and I don’t mean the 5 hours in realtime, I talk about 10+ hours) you should be able too.

I mean, what would an normal person do? Answer: Search for all the stuff he/she needs to survive, wich includes hunting, planting and searching for an water-source. After that the next target is normally to improve your situation further, maybe by building an Shelter for yourself, get higher class equipment and so on. And finally: You will want to secure your (now) living standard and want to improve it even further, most ppl would search for possibilities to build/construct tools and other stuff wich could help them and I could imagine that an survivor with enough knowledge, intellect and skills would try to get to the level of tech wich was present before the Cataclysm happend (he would plunder/build machines needed to make better stuff, plunder Labs and maybe even find Blueprints for new stuff wich was only theoretical worked out… take a look into here to get the gist of my ideas and what I’m talking about http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=6068.0).

And here are some points the devs would have to take a further look at: Quantum Computing (Quantum Science in general. The quantum Computing is atm at the stage normal computing had 20-30 Years in the past), Organic Batteries/Accumulators (yes I have watched the Youtube video about the 30 sec charging phone. And 1 question: Why are there no Recharable batteries?), the plans for Space from the industry (yes america wants to get ppl on the moon again in at least 20 years or so. But don’t underestimate the speed the Industry/Companies will show if they think that there is profit. And I would think that an Conservative America would still go after the prestige) and the resulting Tech-boom from it…

But I think the Devs have thought about most of them already, but I think the game should be update regulary with the newest inventions wich most likely will be an success, because nobody can predict the future with 100% (or imagine what the Mind of other Humans can come up with… Hrmm This is the reason this part of the forum was made, or? :D)

[vultures]

Yeah — profit-worthy purely determines availability. But then, look at cellular phones @ ingame_present and you’ll start putting more of your thoughts over satellite, or wireless (I’m still with the idea that the mobile base is a big thing, 'cuz as for now - your den can easily be overrun imho). There is, however, yet another point of you I wish to discuss here, though briefly.
I’ve spotted a bunch of indie/RL titles recently that dwell on the fact that gameplay could be shifted some decades ago. I suspect this is due to the nature of the spoiled gamer who wants to improve his session(s) with just about anything he finds on the internetZ or his whereabouts. Thus, the designers pull a hard one in terms of in-game availability, stating this is the date, and that’s where you’re at. NQA. This is a fantasy-gameplay legacy: show the players a world they can handle, and make a few exceptions to agree on end-game content. Even if you enjoy futuresque worlds for example, you’ll wish for some, yet intelligent, improvements over the preset “pool” of skills and item behavior. I find this above all normal, though I will conclude.
If you draw a clear marker for top-achievers (in terms of content), you’ve gotta have a perfect one for bottom ones, too. Implying the commons, really - if the railroad is absolutely obsolete, you have to determine just how much of it is keepsaked, and make up some kind of useability treshold. Keeping that same whirlwind out of plasma weaponry with limited supply of fuel cells, for example, is fairly easy - you just make them non-craftable. The problem I see here is with some really dated electronics, methods of communication (and transport is already implied) and non-clean energy sources, that should find very, very limited use as it is, by a large number, discarded because it’s beyond repair.

[CIB]

I think such a goal system would be a really ineffective solution to the general problem of there not being much context to the game, except personal survival. The “proper” fix to that will be the scenario system, NPCs, factions, and generally a world that has more “life” put into it by keeping track of high-level events(compare: DF adventure mode).

[Darkfirephoenix]

…Hrmmm it seems that some of my ideas are a bit overboard and even game-breaking if you have enough time and all the stuff implemented I thought off, an limitation to my ideas would be that you have to find components wich are needed to build most of the sutff. I mean building a fusion-reactor IS possible in real live with a ton of research-time, building time and some High-tech components (wich need raw materials from other parts of the world even [China etc. and I highly doubt the New-England has most of the raw materials needed]), so you would have to search in EXTREMLY dangerous locations to maybe find the parts needed or you even find an partially build Fusion-Generator. But Robots and such stuff are relatively easy to build if you have the knowledge and the components (a robot Hull made from Iron/Steel, something to power it [Robots operate on electricity after all], servos etc. and ofc the programming).

Most of my Nanite-Stuff has to be either found by you or made by you (but it would ofc require you finding OTHER Nanites first and a TON of power [a Plutonium Cell / an fully charged Accumulator in the size 10m x 10m [meters for our miles and such stuff using friends] or an running Fusion/Fission-Generator]) and did I mention all the calculation power needed? I can understand if the devs don’t want to implement such stuff, but it would be an good idea for an mod or such!

And don’t forget the time factor… So let’s calculate the time needed to get this far for my high-tech stuff to come into play (and I will calculate the average player, not some lucky sob player): Trying to find a good place to stay + minimum supply on tools, food and skills = 10h Getting some more high end stuff: CBMs, Mutations, weapons = 5-10h And now we get to my stuff: Finding it 1-5h, getting the needed skills/knowledge on the needed level = 1-5h and time needed to get it all running smoothly: 1-5h (the time needed for my stuff would havily depend on how lucky you are and how you prepare to use it) So overall time usage = 18-35h without dying and you actively searching for the components. If you die… well you have to get at least all the needed skills/knowledge even if you have collected all the stuff, wich could lead to 10+ hours again (if your supplies don’t run out / “Friends” want to visit you and you have to get outta there).

I’m not good at all this low-tech earlier to get stuff, if you haven’t thought about it already! But I have some ideas regarding this matter ofc too… Why don’t you post some ideas in my thread btw? Hrmm an mobile base could be relatively easy to do: An vehicle with some Solar panels, Kitchen Unit, an little “workshop” (all the tools needed) and an portable growing station (an little greenhouse, it isn’t that hard really and could you supply [depending on the size ofc] with all the food you need).

And my viewpoint on the matter regarding Devs making EVERYTHING the players want (content etc.): I think that the devs should implement only the stuff they deem worthy and fitting of the game, they shouldn’t try to implement ideas wich don’t fit the setting etc. even if some of the “fans”/players REALLY want it, but the devs should give some reasons why they don’t want to implement some stuff. If the fans/players REALLY want something: There are still possibilities to mod it in, but only after asking the devs first ofc.

[vultures]

nd my viewpoint on the matter regarding Devs making EVERYTHING the players want (content etc.): I think that the devs should implement only the stuff they deem worthy and fitting of the game, they shouldn't try to implement ideas wich don't fit the setting etc. even if some of the "fans"/players REALLY want it, but the devs should give some reasons why they don't want to implement some stuff. If the fans/players REALLY want something: There are still possibilities to mod it in, but only after asking the devs first ofc. ;)

I guess you misinterpreted the term "outline" as-is; a team of people or a community afterall can refit the suit of borderline exceptions as to make different, even better conclusions. In fact, CataDDA is very well maintained so it's prone to such a change one time or another... the thing is, this is DDA_interpretation_outline and it stands in a different place than the original (Whales' Cataclysm) did. As I once wrote, it would be a happy occurance if we modded CataDDA into a Warcraft2_Tides_of_Darkness simulator, with all the races and classes, scenery and dwellings - simply because this game is a perfect codebase for that. This also means the power_off switch for a good number of balancing presets throughout the game. I reckon this to be the case with various material that could supplement the game over the top, like high-grade military weapons or even safehouses/shelters built so tight they reminescence the vaults. FYI, mobile bases [i]are[/i] a long_beforeseen thing, and a milestone for determining just how much electric output should one have in game in order to keep things neat and balanced. And because we're slowly gliding towards working NPC classes, I want to comprehend and share the outline for just about anything that could and would use electric current supply, and to discuss just how much the communications systems are impaired in game time.

[kevin.granade]

And my viewpoint on the matter regarding Devs making EVERYTHING the players want (content etc.): I think that the devs should implement only the stuff they deem worthy and fitting of the game, they shouldn’t try to implement ideas wich don’t fit the setting etc. even if some of the “fans”/players REALLY want it, but the devs should give some reasons why they don’t want to implement some stuff. If the fans/players REALLY want something: There are still possibilities to mod it in, but only after asking the devs first ofc.

That’s pretty much what we do. In the end, if you aren’t fully behind something, if you don’t “get it”, it’s not going to come out well. At the same time we try and explain why we’re doing things the way we are too.

[RAM]

I think the clearest way to put it is this is a limitation of the crafting system. New industrially produced items might be acquirable in some limited fashion via a robot factory, replicator, biotech device, but they would be special cases as opposed to simply adding a crafting recipe with the requisite tools and components.

This makes me think on how far it should be possible to rebuild civilisation. It seems certain that at some point one will be able to recruit N.P.C.s and have them loiter at a base. Presumably they defend that base. Once you give them all strong but renewable armour, and let’s say, pneumatic crossbows, they probably won’t die from violence. But will they starve? Or run out of ammunition? Can you have runners butchering corpses and gathering fruit for a chef, and chopping wood for bolts? Can they operate a farm? Farm blobs for mutagen and purifier? Build walls? Can they go out on patrols in their pedal-powered armoured battering-ram and knock over encroaching Triffid groves? Can they plant forests for perpetual wood production? Could you build a completely self-sufficient and perpetually safe settlement? Can your faction then breed and multiply? And if you have a self-sufficient community of formerly civilised folk with access to a large supply of technical documentation, is it infeasible for them to start recreating lost technology? Should your faction be limited the crafting recipes and construction options or should they start building concrete walls and internal combustion engines?
It seems to me that “How much civilisation is possible?” is an inevitable question if survivor factions become a reality. And it seems that it will be quite a divisive question as people start asking why a successful community of people who were presumably educated before the cataclysm cannot do something, or why an individual survivor cannot do what a community can do, and will be further complicated by suggestions like raiding government bunkers for technical experts advanced military designs…
For myself… I would probably prefer to be able to eventually reconstruct the society we had before, but I could be content with loading my base’ guards with gear that I crafted…

[kevin.granade]

If/when we get the point of having a dedicated NPC workforce, we can revisit the “no manufactured goods” concept, but for now the focus is on the lone survivor , and the limitations that scenario imposes.

[vultures]

To the point of NPC, or colony outline - I do have some doubts. As far as I can remember, we had only several attempts to agree on facts, and from wide angles, too. The official timeline pours little in the same pool of discussion treads, so not much to disclose, really:

• you’re pushed out to survive in a deadly New England setting, only to find a few of those still alive being just as miserable as you are;
• by the look of things (labs, military facilities) even the best of the organized groups were forced to dissolve into the newfound world;
• beacons of signal do happen, but there is no indication whatsoever as to what actually happened in those desolate outposts.

The border I can see here could check in again for the same reality bubble within the 9/18/36 months span.

[Zireael]

If/when we get the point of having a dedicated NPC workforce, we can revisit the “no manufactured goods” concept, but for now the focus is on the lone survivor , and the limitations that scenario imposes.

Great to know.