Disable electric devices

[JimQuaid]

How about you let me play the way I want to and you play the way you want to?

What is the way I play? If you check my opening post there’s a link to my latest vehicle. It has all the tool rigs the game currently offers. I have several bionics installed, the most used ones are the Integrated Toolset and the Repair Nanobots.

I’m a High Tech Player.

Where in this thread did you see me trying to force people to adopt my playstyle of high tech gadgetry?

… I don’t sit around and whine that other people use their fancy equipment and don’t have to fall back to my way of play.

Where in my posts did you see me whining about players not “falling back” to my way of playing with powered tools?

you don’t like technology

Excuse me? Would I have spent 2 real life days making this if I didn’t like the technology in the game?

I do not mind different opinions but I do mind someone accusing me of a position that I do not in fact hold. So please stop that.

Cheapness and reliability.

What is the opposite of cheap and reliable? Expensive and unreliable. What does this suggestion do to powered tools? Make them less reliable. Therefore emphasizing how reliable the cheap stuff is.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

Really, I think all of this can be avoided if the tech-disabling storms are made a terrain hazard. I.e. an actual, physical, weather phenomenon that you can see on the map and steer around. That way they are both technically permanent - being large and slow to move, even slower to dissipate - and at the same time, easily foreseeable and avoidable. It’ll just take a lot of tinkering with the code to achieve.

[JimQuaid]

Can we please drop the whole weather thing? I said from the start that it wasn’t an actual weather condition.
I sincerely regret ever using the word “storm” in my example naming.
It is not a weather change suggestion.

[Sean_Mirrsen]

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:43, topic:5561”]Can we please drop the whole weather thing? I said from the start that it wasn’t an actual weather condition.
I sincerely regret ever using the word “storm” in my example naming.
It is not a weather change suggestion.[/quote]And mine is! My countersuggestion is to make the electronics-disrupting “ion storm” an actual overmap feature, a physical weather phenomenon that, like one of the new zombie hordes, the player can encounter and try to steer clear of, yet unlike one of the new zombie hordes, one that the player can see on the map without resorting to debug functions. It achieves the best of all variants, accommodating all playstyles, and at a glance, fits nicely into the postapocalyptic setting with the hazardous world. Why emulate the planet moving through some kind of EM disruption in space, when you can simulate an actual phenomenon moving across the landscape, which would effectively achieve the same thing?

[Sanarr]

To quench rising anger towards the idea (idea which I like, because it is a challenge, and game currently lack of it, to my mind):

Maybe some interested and skillful (in coding terms) person would do it and implement as a mod? I’ll use it, along with those who like the idea. Those who doesnt like - would disable mod and play game as they see fit.

My thoughts about overall topic:

I think that force of nature (especialy if it is mixture of radioactive/nether/other dangerous stuff) should play major role in cataclysm, boosting challenge and survival aspects of this game. Weather effects (including sci-fi ones), natural disasters like earthquakes and so on which would change face of map ruining some buildings (and releasing some “things-that-you-dont-want-to-know-about” from deep rifts)… there so much fun (and !!!FUN!!!) lurks around, waiting to be included in game. And, of course, more challenges means more short and long lasting decisions:

• Would you spend your time crafting vehicle or gather stuff needed to survive winter (which might or might not be severe - some variables in climate are much welcomed).
• Would you craft your precious truck of death in a quick way, or spend additional days to find EMP-shielding alloy for its most vital parts?
• Would you plan some long trips without knowing what weather effects would you encounter? (Good addition would be linkage of survival skill to ability to forecast weather and/or supernatural events representing increasing knowledge about world around you).
• And many, many others.

It saddens me that many bright ideas meet so much confrontanion. I understand that it would always be a quarrel between “More hardships/challenges” and “More fun/action” camps, but it is cataclysm, you know. Everything f… failed up and no wonder that many of high tech stuff might meet some struggles, including “almost supernatural” ones (I’m not saing that they should be disabled, only include some rare occasions of unreliability as listed above in this topic). “Dark days ahead” should be game atmopshere and main feeling, along with uncertain future, acoompanied with feeling of dying world… definetely not “Dark (in game) day , before I collect some super stuff and become an unstopable doom.”

[JimQuaid]

[quote=“Caconym, post:40, topic:5561”]Why don’t we have a weather condition that disables your limbs, you can’t do anything except stand there and wait if your caught out in it, because no reason [essentially what this suggestion amounts too]

What would inadequate say about this thread if he was still around.[/quote]

Didn’t see this post earlier, strange.
Why is my suggestion, in which you can still go to town on zombies with your gun, burn down fungal blooms and chop down entire forests, “essentially” same as your suggestion of limb-disabling weather, which prevents player intectrion with the environment at all? My idea nerfs one aspect of the game, your proposal stops the player completely. I don’t think they amount to the same.
I don’t know what he would say, why?

-snip-

I was more thinking of a more general drawback of electric tools. Your suggestion is kinda like “Don’t walk into a house if your only useable weapon is a flamethrower.” If you only have a flamethrower don’t do indoor raids. If you only have UPS reliant weapons don’t go into a localized “ion storm”.
Like acid rain now I wanted it to be a situation that you will have to face and prepare for, rather than choose to go into a storm or don’t going into it. Torching a house down or not burning to death due to self inflicted arson.
That being said I like the idea of localized weather. Is that already planned? Is there a thread for it already? If not would you mind opening one? I have an idea for it myself but I’d feel bad for opening a thread with a suggestion that isn’t originally mine.

(By the way is there a discussion somewhere on how harsh (or how easy) the winter season is?)

-snip-

I would have thought a rare lab final reward could be a shielding against Purple Sky effect.
“This is an experimental electronic fortification device. It shields one small object completely from outside radiation. You don’t know what the scientists here were going to do with it, but you are sure you will find a use for it”.
It would either mod one tool “hotplate (rechargeable, shielded)” or protect a tile in a vehicle ("heavy duty frame, storage battery, rv kitchen)

That or drag your stuff deep underground to use it without failure.

[PoeSalesman]

What is the opposite of cheap and reliable? Expensive and unreliable. What does this suggestion do to powered tools? Make them less reliable. Therefore emphasizing how reliable the cheap stuff is.

Your suggestion does it in the worst way possible. It makes it arbitrary, unavoidable, and unfair, all in the interest of forcing people to play like cavemen and ruining a playstyle entirely.

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:46, topic:5561”]Why is my suggestion, in which you can still go to town on zombies with your gun, burn down fungal blooms and chop down entire forests, “essentially” same as your suggestion of limb-disabling weather, which prevents player intectrion with the environment at all? My idea nerfs one aspect of the game, your proposal stops the player completely. I don’t think they amount to the same.
I don’t know what he would say, why?[/quote]
Because you completely destroy a major way of playing the game arbitrarily to force people to adopt another one. That’s the worst sort of pigeonholing.

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:46, topic:5561”]I was more thinking of a more general drawback of electric tools. Your suggestion is kinda like “Don’t walk into a house if your only useable weapon is a flamethrower.” If you only have a flamethrower don’t do indoor raids. If you only have UPS reliant weapons don’t go into a localized “ion storm”.
Like acid rain now I wanted it to be a situation that you will have to face and prepare for, rather than choose to go into a storm or don’t going into it. Torching a house down or not burning to death due to self inflicted arson.[/quote]
You know what the drawback to electronic tools is? Needing to run on batteries, a finite resource. Acid rain can be avoided simply by wearing protective gear, and doesn’t instantly eat through all of your electronic equipment to prevent you from playing that way.

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:46, topic:5561”]I would have thought a rare lab final reward could be a shielding against Purple Sky effect.
“This is an experimental electronic fortification device. It shields one small object completely from outside radiation. You don’t know what the scientists here were going to do with it, but you are sure you will find a use for it”.
It would either mod one tool “hotplate (rechargeable, shielded)” or protect a tile in a vehicle ("heavy duty frame, storage battery, rv kitchen)

That or drag your stuff deep underground to use it without failure.[/quote]
Rare? One small item? COMPLETELY ridiculous. This just makes your comparison to acid rain even sillier, because raincoats certainly aren’t an ultra-rare lab final item.

[JimQuaid]

You know what the drawback to electronic tools is? Needing to run on batteries, a finite resource. Acid rain can be avoided simply by wearing protective gear, and doesn’t instantly eat through all of your electronic equipment to prevent you from playing that way.

Rechargeable battery mod? Recharging station? Solar panels?

Compare the charcoal forge and and its powered sister the electrical forge.
The charcoal forge needs charcoal which needs to be found (rarer than batteries in my games since electric appliances come with batteries and I find charcoal maybe once every 8 houses or so) or crafted using wood. The electrical forge can be modded to be charged by sunlight. After using the rechargeable battery mod and putting it in a solar powered recharging station all I have to do is sit and wait. I don’t have to craft or find anything anymore because the sun is not a finite ressource. I can read books or make new clothes while the electric variant of the forge is being magically refilled. I can even increase the maximum by installing a mounted forge rig because now it isn’t limited to 1000 battery unit (with the extra battery mod) but now it can draw from the 5+ storage batteries installed in the vehicle.
If the Low Tech charcoal forge is cheap and reliable what do you call the mounted electric forge which doesn’t even need to be manually reloaded?

Rare? One small item? COMPLETELY ridiculous. This just makes your comparison to acid rain even sillier, because raincoats certainly aren’t an ultra-rare lab final item.

Acid rain effects everyone who isn’t moving exclusively through the sewer drilling their way from basement to basement using jackhammers. Since it’s effecting so many playstyles, namely anyone who spends time outside, it makes sense to have cheaper and easier protection for it.
This suggestion here would effect people who have a 24/7 desperate reliance on basically maintenance free super High Tech tools, a more specific problem, so a more specific solution is needed.
If you think about it they synergize nicely. How to spend the downtime? How about going down the laboratory (where your stuff will work) and find protection for the next downtime?

Your suggestion does it in the worst way possible. It makes it arbitrary, unavoidable, and unfair, all in the interest of forcing people to play like cavemen and ruining a playstyle entirely. Because you completely destroy a major way of playing the game arbitrarily to force people to adopt another one. That’s the worst sort of pigeonholing.

Not being a native speaker I don’t understand your use of pigeonholing here. Can you express that in a different way?

How am I forcing people to play like cavemen?
Does acid rain force you to drop everything you do when it starts, step outside in your shiny rain coat and wait standing in the acid rain until its over?
This idea is about survival and being prepared.
Cataclysm is about Dark Days being Ahead of us, right? It’s not "The carefree apocalypse where you don’t have to worry about anything because your equipment works all the time and is even automagically reloaded for you"
If you don’t want to use charcoal forges or open fire because “nuh-uh PoeSalesman is no caveman and uses modern tools and modern tools only” then prepare yourself for this bad event like any survivor would do. Use all that shiny equipment and preserve your food beforehand and you won’t have to use a firedrill to cook food like in caveman times.

I mean, seriously, what is the major drawback of having a solarpowered mounted NX-17 Charge Rifle and what is it’s cheap and reliable low tech alternative?

[i2amroy]

Ok, first thing is that if everyone could please remember that metaphors are just that, metaphors and are often flawed in some way or another. They are not a perfect description of a scenario, and focusing on the tiny flaws inherent in the fact that they are not a perfect model neither invalidates the opinions of the other person, nor does it have anything to do with the original discussion. Arguing about how raincoats are not the same as solar panels will get you nowhere; accept that it is an imperfect comparison and address the similarities, not the differences. Also, try to keep it civil please.

Now for actual content/replies/information.

[ol][li]Stationary ion storms that possibly disable some of the higher forms of electronics? Cool idea, but I wouldn’t want to see it roaming the countryside (mainly because such things don’t really work in the real world). Maybe link it to certain labs or artifacts. Would it have any effect on lesser forms of technology like hotplates? No, because said forms of technology are basically unharmed by that sort of electrical damage in the real world. Having a mob that could do it at will might also be an interesting thing to see show up occasionally.[/li]
[li]Realistically electric shielding from EMP sources isn’t something that can be done by the average layperson. It requires virtually rebuilding whatever it is you are trying to shield with the shielding installed, and even with modern technology some of the real commercial technologies we use aren’t necessarily guaranteed to work. In a place like the cataclysm you’d be better off just building a large faraday cage around whatever it is you wanted to protect and then stepping inside to use it.[/li]
[li]Yes, electrically powered things are better then charcoal ones. This is because they are in real life, and is the reason why we have electric furnaces in real life.[/li]
[li]Solar is renewable, yes. This is counterbalanced by the fact that solar panels are more difficult to acquire, are relatively fragile, and cannot be made by the player.[/li]
[li]On the other hand charcoal is designed as a low-tech alternative. It is easier to obtain and maintain then a more high-tech one, but will not function as well. If a solar-powered player is attacked and their solar panels break they must find new ones to continue on; charcoal users don’t have this problem and can simply make more of what they need to function.[/li]
[li]Ideally charcoal will eventually be switched over to a “start it and let it run” type of crafting, instead of the current “watch it constantly” type. That would allow the player to set up a charcoal fire, walk away, and then come back later and collect the charcoal. This would do quite a bit for enabling the ease of obtaining charcoal and would probably reduce the recipe to a 3-5 min setup instead of an hour long process.[/li]
[li]Do I view the player being able to use high-tech tools that they find as a “problem”? No, and it’s actually an intended process of the game. The difficulty with those tools comes in two things, that they are difficult to find and that they are not able to be made or repaired by the player. This means that as they should eventually wear down they won’t necessarily be able to be replaced unless the player has managed to scavenge a replacement.[/li]
[li]Solar power recently took a rather large nerf in the amount of time it takes to generate any useful amount of power. If you haven’t been playing with it yet I highly suggest you check it out, current amounts are something like 8x less then previously, and you actually need to wait for it to regenerate depending on the amount of power you are using now[/li]
[li]Things will break down, and those that currently don’t are eventually planned to do so over time. This will only amplify the problem more, int hat high tech things won’t be easily fixable by the player as their low cost alternatives, and while they may last longer prior to breaking compared to the player’s makeshift things, when they do eventually give in that will be it for them unless the player manages to find another replacement.[/li]
[li]Eventually adding the ability to grow trees for the long haul would be a nice touch. It wouldn’t have much effect since even shorter lifetime trees take years to grow (and we wouldn’t be speeding them up any noticeable amount), but it would be a nice touch.[/li]
[li]Localized weather is definitely something that would be nice to have. I think we might have some rudimentary form of it already, but if we don’t it would definitely be on the list of things we would want to add.[/li]
[li]Winter is almost certainly going to get more difficult to survive through in the future. Actual snow accumulation, less wildlife, harsher cold are all things that are present in the real world, and will be things we will look to adding eventually.[/li][/ol]

[system]

How about ion storm map tiles are more devoid of zombies then normal tiles? No laser pistol v less zombies? HNNNNNG. Yes plz.

[halberdsturgeon]

Cataclysm is about Dark Days being Ahead of us, right? It’s not “The carefree apocalypse where you don’t have to worry about anything because your equipment works all the time and is even automagically reloaded for you”

Just stop using this argument. There are a lot of ways to make the game more challenging that are far less absurd than a game mechanic which arbitrarily forces you to play musical chairs with electronic and non electronic devices.

Want a reason for why I don’t take issue with acid rain, other than the fact that, as mentioned, it can be mitigated without throwing half of your gear under the bus and reverting to rubbing sticks together to make fire? Because it is a thing that exists, not a thing that was made up on the spot to artificially slap people for daring to do something as OP as using a flashlight.

[JimQuaid]

-snip-

1. The reason I first brought up the term “ion storm” (common sci-fi term) was because I assumed that the community around a game with zombies would just run with the idea and not want an in-depth discussion about whether or not it would be realistic. It generally goes “Hey there’s this stuff that makes the dead rise again, cool? Let’s run with it.” and not have people saying “So wait, if this stuff can reanimate loose dead matter (bones) to form a moving entity (skeletons) with an intent to harm living things then can the same stuff turn a car wreck into a rage filled machine with infinite fuel that hunts foxes and wolves?”. No, it’s just "Effect: Zombies, Cause: Stuff"
   The problem I have whenever “realism” is used to justify something in game design is because stuff like “realism and zombie games” is what gives people like Jack Thompson fuel to point at gamers and say "Hey they think zombies and stuff are real. That’s the kind of dangerous whackjobs gamers are!"
   What you need to find is a balance between in-universe-plausability and game balance.
   Realistically you could find 100s if not 1000s of tin cans looking through people’s trash. Would it be plausible ingame? Sure, people aren’t going to take empty cans with them when they’re making a mad dash for safety. Would it be balanced? You could use them to make loads of batteries. No. Therefore only have a few tin cans around.

2. If I understand correctly a large scale EMP would outright fry any electronic device and make them unusable even after the EMP. What I suggest would let everything resume just fine after the event. So it’s not an EMP but a shielding device that protects from the strange realistic radiation that is as realistic as monsters coming out of portals realistic.

3. game balance vs realism

4&8. Solar cells cannot be crafted but yes I see your point. That being said, right now I have more solar panels than I can comfortably install in my new ride and I also have the matrials to make the improved version but I’m lacking the recipe for that at the moment. In my current game I have seen 4 cities, 2 large ones which I only skirted and 2 smaller (9 buildings or so) ones. This could be the RNG smiling upon me but solar panels aren’t that hard to come by. I’ve also found quite a few in my 2 test games before that. And with enough panels even the recent nerf isn’t that much of a hit.

5. Mh, they’re not all that fragile if you place them inside the car.

6. I like that. I’m assuming similar stuff is planned for boiling water and distilling alcohol and so on?

7&9. When that (electronic maintenance) gets added this suggestion will be moot. Safe maybe for the special spawns during freak dimensional rift time. Hotplates slowly losing durability, solar panels becoming less and less efficient until they are repaired. Sure, that will do.

12. Really looking forward to that. Winter should be harsher than just putting on an extra pullover.

y I don’t take issue with acid rain, other than the fact that, as mentioned, it can be mitigated without throwing half of your gear under the bus and reverting to rubbing sticks together to make fire? Because it is a thing that exists, not a thing that was made up on the spot to artificially slap people for daring to do something as OP as using a flashlight.

Gear that you will be able to use again afterwards.

Oil lamps need you to craft or find lamp oil.
Gasoline lamps need you to find gasoline which is not renewable.
Fire needs setup lest you burn your house down and fed with combustible matrial.

So compared to the lighting alternatives how is a rechargable flashlight, that doesn’t need any additional crafting or gathering after the initial cost, which isn’t all that high, not OP?

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:48, topic:5561”]Cataclysm is about Dark Days being Ahead of us, right? It’s not “The carefree apocalypse where you don’t have to worry about anything because your equipment works all the time and is even automagically reloaded for you”

Just stop using this argument.[/quote]

Not talk about survival in a survival game? Then I have no points to make. I’ll stop arguing with you.

There are good and bad reasons for and against any idea. But in this case demanding to “stop saying that CDDA is about survival” is NOT a good move against this specific proposal. Or indeed any proposal on this board.

[PoeSalesman]

-snip snap-

Funny enough, we DO have an explanation in this game for why there are zombies. MOST modern zombie settings think up a good enough reason for why it’s happening and how it works. So no, just taking everything at face value because zombies is not how this setting works. Things operate on rules until you get too close to the nether, and even the different kinds of nether probably have a standard way of operating. Random magical weather that stops on your toes for using tech? Doesn’t make sense in the least.

I don’t like the idea of being forced to be a caveman a quarter of the year to appeal to you, tech should be better, and as i2amroy said better than I could, this is the tradeoff for them being hard or impossible to repair and rare. This is why it’s balanced. A flashlight SHOULD be better than a torch.

CATA is not strictly about ‘surviving as a caveman forever yeah!’. It’s a sandbox, the progression of technology and ease of survivability is supposed to be the point, with different challenges cropping up the further you go on. First you’re too weak to fight for yourself and barely have any technology, then you get your hands on a reasonable amount and get your skills up so you can survive better against the basic enemies and troubles in the world, then harder things like winter and tackling labs and triffids crop up that require more skill and preparation from you, and then you get to the point where your high-tech per-cataclysm stuff starts to break down. At that point you need to start building your own long term solutions while you run through the last of the pre-cata tech. That’s the general progression that makes sense, and is fair. It gives self-made and primitive junk a place, outside of their constant cheapness and reliability. Much better than an arbitrary unavoidable weather effect that slaps you in the face, punishes you for wanting to use better technology while you can, and forces you to play primitive for a quarter of the year.

[halberdsturgeon]

I assumed that the community around a game with zombies would just run with the idea and not want an in-depth discussion about whether or not it would be realistic.

Look up “verisimilitude”.

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:52, topic:5561”]Oil lamps need you to craft or find lamp oil.
Gasoline lamps need you to find gasoline which is not renewable.
Fire needs setup lest you burn your house down and fed with combustible matrial.

So compared to the lighting alternatives how is a rechargable flashlight, that doesn’t need any additional crafting or gathering after the initial cost, which isn’t all that high, not OP?[/quote]

I’m glad you brought up gasoline lamps, since they’re basically a reskinned flashlight. Gasoline and batteries are exactly as renewable as one another. It’s possible to run out of either on a given map tile, and equally possible to travel to a new map tile and retrieve more.

I find it laughable that you seriously think flashlights are OP, because I was actually exaggerating for effect.

[quote=“halberdsturgeon, post:51, topic:5561”]Not talk about survival in a survival game? Then I have no points to make. I’ll stop arguing with you.

There are good and bad reasons for and against any idea. But in this case demanding to “stop saying that CDDA is about survival” is NOT a good move against this specific proposal.[/quote]

The quote I pulled from you was suggesting that the game was too easy. I said that if that’s your problem, there are plenty of ways to make it more difficult without adding in hamfisted game mechanics that punish people brutally for not going low tech. You (and others) seem to think that zombie survival = shunning technology, but the two are in no way synonymous.

Cataclysm existed before it was possible to build charcoal smokers, fire drills and oil lamps. Building your own low-tech rig is an option of the game, not a requirement. I’m yet to see you provide a convincing argument for why it should be otherwise.

[KA101]

Couple points:

We covered the “bleak grimdark low-tech survival whatever” outlook in passing, in the design doc: that derives from things like the wiki mainpage. The wiki mainpage is not canon, and if you want to play a game where you’re jumping for joy because you found a backpack, that’s your game and you can play it that way. But you’ve no right to make me play my game that way.

The Nether effects are why I said that ion storms ought to be tied into portals: Nether or Lab Wackiness is the only explanation available in-lore for weird electronic-disabling effects. Within those, we’d still need to work out the details.

I have a very difficult time accepting a fixed-in-space planar problem. Portals and such are relative to Earth; gravity effect or somesuch. GlyphGryph laid that out a while ago. If the Labs managed to rip a rift open, then by rights the portals should be “disappearing” only to tear through the Earth in a little less than a year’s time because they’re fixed points in space.

I’ve only heard of “ion storm” in two contexts, off top/head. One is the people who made Deus Ex, two is the weather effect from C&C Tiberian Sun. Those lasted about 10-15 minutes and were not a trivial thing: no flight, no radar, weird coloring, and random strikes. Inconvenient as all get-out.
Here, yeah, 10-15 minutes is an annoyance if you’re safe in your base. In the field, and especially if you’re using energy weapons subject to the takedown, it can scrap your operation and send you home. I’m not waiting 15 minutes at a fungal bloom or horde!

[JimQuaid]

-cut cut-

Well since electronic devices rust is planned this suggestion is more or less superflous. Maybe someone will recycle the rift enemies spawn idea, who knows. I had this idea in five minutes and wrote it down and when someone needed a better lore explanation I tried to come up with one and when someone suggested some way of mitigating it, sure go underground, it’ll work there. It’s not like I wrecked my brain for weeks and then expected people to love my idea; I won’t lose any sleep or will quit CDDA or leave the forum in protest.

That being said, I’d hate to be misunderstood.

It was never my intention to punish players for using powered tools. After all I love powered tools and I wouldn’t like being punished for using a welder. The way you and halberdsturgeon argued about slapping people in the face made it sound like I had already queued up a PR that gave hotplates a 50-50 chance to turn into active mininukes on use.
I wanted to give a penalty to exclusive use of electricty based devices. It’s like “eating an apple - good! Eating nothing BUT apples - bad!”
(metaphors again)

I’m glad you brought up gasoline lamps, since they’re basically a reskinned flashlight. Gasoline and batteries are exactly as renewable as one another. It’s possible to run out of either on a given map tile, and equally possible to travel to a new map tile and retrieve more.

I was using the term like it would be used in Minecraft (and I suppose PoeSalesman was using the term “finite” in a smiliar way). In Minecraft diamonds are (or were not sure with current versions, snapshots) considered finite because you couldn’t make them yourself. To find more of it you would have to move. Iron and gold you could get by building a zombie (pigman) grinder. It would take a while but since these mobs respawn, basically infinite iron and gold.
For lampoil I need chunks of fat and water. So find a place where animals spawn and - bingo! - infinite lampoil. Water I can get from rain. But for a given spot there’s only so much batteries (scrap metal) or so much gasoline before I run out and cannot make more of them without moving.

[quote=“halberdsturgeon, post:54, topic:5561”]The quote I pulled from you was suggesting that the game was too easy. I said that if that’s your problem, there are plenty of ways to make it more difficult without adding in hamfisted game mechanics that punish people brutally for not going low tech. You (and others) seem to think that zombie survival = shunning technology, but the two are in no way synonymous.

Cataclysm existed before it was possible to build charcoal smokers, fire drills and oil lamps. Building your own low-tech rig is an option of the game, not a requirement. I’m yet to see you provide a convincing argument for why it should be otherwise.[/quote]

Again, I’m a High Tech player. I wouldn’t be playing this game if I thought technology ruined a survival experience. I don’t think zombies and future technology are mutually exclusive.
Nor have I suggested that low-tech should be a requirement, unless you can point me at something I said that suggested to you otherwise, then I will try to clarify that.
Adding acid rain didn’t require players to get a rain coat asap after spawning otherwise your character will explode on the evening of day 2. You don’t need a rain coat, you just stay inside. BUT you will need a raincoat IF you also want to move outside during acid rain.
You will need to make a low tech rig IF you didn’t prepare for an event that you knew was coming and even got a warning for.

I mean it’s done, I can’t code, the devs don’t seem to be convinced and there’s apperantly better stuff in planning.

But out of curiousity, why are you (seemingly) objecting to preparation to avoid low tech tools by using your high tech ones ahead of time? Eating preserved food in a (admittedly dormant) mobile fortress is hardly the action of a caveman.

[Dzlan]

Some of you are missing the point, I feel. Sorry for pointing this out.
We are not trying to Force you to use low tech gear. Just trying to slightly reduce the use of high tech gear. It was an idea. But then some of you took this to mean we want you to come to our level of play. I use high tech gear too, which is only because it is better. Which is my point.
Anyway, I am liking some of i2amroy’s ideas, such as making electronics devices degrade over time.
Also I never tested Solar Panels before they got nerfed, but I quite like them at the moment. Though I only have 8 on my vehicle and a lot more stored for when those break, its because having yellow #'s everywhere on my vehicle would look silly. So I just have 2 row’s of 4.
However, having the need to provide maintenance is a good idea for higher tech items. And winter being dangerous sounds like a good idea too.
Also I agree with JimQuaid about Game Balance vs Realism.
Honestly, for a game that has Zombies, why would you be arguing over every detail such as what causes such storms realistically? It is a post apocalypse

Funny enough, we DO have an explanation in this game for why there are zombies. MOST modern zombie settings think up a good enough reason for why it’s happening and how it works.

And yes, but as I stated before, that is because a story was created for it. And for anything that is added to a game, a story can be created for why that exists and how that works too.

[halberdsturgeon]

But out of curiousity, why are you (seemingly) objecting to preparation to avoid low tech tools by using your high tech ones ahead of time? Eating preserved food in a (admittedly dormant) mobile fortress is hardly the action of a caveman.

Okay. What I’m objecting to, specifically, is the shoehorning in of an unnatural mechanic like this as a solution for the perceived problem of most players favouring high tech equipment over low tech equipment.

Firstly, I don’t agree that there’s anything inherently wrong with people using electronic equipment in this setting, or that they should be punished for doing so, and thus I’m not convinced that there’s a problem that needs solving in the first place.

Secondly (and more importantly, since I’d be willing to concede the first point if convinced), I’ve seen similarly inelegant balance solutions used for other problems in various games and I just don’t like them. They make me groan and roll my eyes when I have to work around them. A good balance solution is something that fits into the game without making you stop and think ‘this is obviously just here to bludgeon me over the head for doing x or y’. The suggestion in this thread is the opposite of that.

[PoeSalesman]

[quote=“JimQuaid, post:56, topic:5561”]I wanted to give a penalty to exclusive use of electricty based devices. It’s like “eating an apple - good! Eating nothing BUT apples - bad!”
(metaphors again)[/quote]
The penalty comes into play when your gun jams, or your UPS runs out of batteries, and there’s a horde right on your heels. At the moment anyway, the electronic wear and tear will eventually be added too. I guess since this has already been withdrawn in light of the later it’s a bit pointless to point it out though.

But out of curiousity, why are you (seemingly) objecting to preparation to avoid low tech tools by using your high tech ones ahead of time? Eating preserved food in a (admittedly dormant) mobile fortress is hardly the action of a caveman.

To add another complaint to this, since I don’t see a point in repeating what others have said, it would be incredibly tedious to sit in your base for a week and then need to go find million batteries instead of being able to do anything if you don’t play primitive.

[Belteshazzar]

Yes, I like this idea. Because I have a page worth of skills and an accumulated library for a reason, batteries are hardly a limited resource… I’ve NEVER run out of the damn things between devices dropping off zombies and the acid rain being an ingredient in their crafting. Need some tougher weather anyhow, a bit of warning might be nice though… like the Blowouts in STALKER. Then again, maybe I come to this game with an entirely different view… the Cataclysm is progressive, there is no fixing it, the world is as dead as it’s denizens, and like them it just doesn’t feel it fully yet.

The game should start at it’s easiest… with your bionics and laser guns, manufactured products and canned goods, available shelter accumulated into of easily accessible goodies and treasures of the world, free from the taking of their braindead former owners…

But the darker days are still ahead, this isn’t a dressup doll simulator, don’t let the ‘stylish’ trait fool you… there is no ‘playstyle’ except what you need now to keep you alive now. You roll with the punches and keep going… because the only score is how long you’ve been alive.

You want to play a cyberninja, tough luck, you mutated into an eyeless trilobite retard because your map is full of radiation zones and mutagens! You wanted to grow a garden? Too bad, today your garden is infested by zombears fighting robots and it’s raining ash from another dimension.