Decreasing tedious skill grind

Game Talk The Drawing Board
61

[quote=“tarburst98, post:60, topic:12277”]>You use 5 plastic chunks, 1 nail file, 1 rock, 5 rags, 50 solder, 1 cooking oil, 10 Duct Tape, 50 Thread, and 1 copper wire.

nope, see, you just introduced a resource drain.[/quote]

Yes and no.

While it would be increasing resource drain by causing more damaged items to occur in general for the player, this is entirely intentional (I said as much last post), and it is not “introducing” anything, because repair based resource drain already exists.

This would primarily be changing already existing resource drain (including, but not limited to: batteries, solder, plastic chunks, scrap metal, rags, kevlar, Nomex, Leather, Duct Tape, Thread…), and existing gear-gates (specialised repair tools for each individual type of repair). While the items given were just an example, the variety shown actually doubles as an anti-boredom feature, as a variety of different items to acquire means less repetition for the player.

That said, resource drain is not a bad thing at all, nor does it cause tedium - bad design causes tedium. Imagine the game without drains on the player’s resources:

The player does not grow hungry.
The player does not grow thirsty.
There are no enemies.
Crafting, vehicle creation, and construction are not only free, but instant (and all cars spawn fully repaired and gassed up anyway).
The player’s carrying capacity is infinite.

Pure sandbox, no game. Car house building walking simulator 2016.

There is hunger and thirst to stop you from remaining in safety forever.
There are enemies when you leave safety, so you seek equipment to protect and improve yourself.
There are crafting requirements to gain equipment, so you search out other skills and materials to gain the equipment you seek.
There are limits to carrying capacity so you make choices about what to keep and what to leave behind, and so you seek either permanent shelter, to store what you cannot bring, or a vehicle, to carry more along with you.

Just like real life, Needs -> Goals -> Choices. In a very real sense, the game is more fun for the player because of features that make life harder for the character.

62

sigh. i think the fact that everyone but you thinks this is a bad idea is what’s most telling.

63

I don’t have a problem with what Pantalion is suggesting. All the materials for repairing items are readily scavengable from the nearest town, all you gotta do is go get them which introduces more risk to the character as you brave the undead hordes just like you would for food, books, or whatever else.

64

I actually think his idea makes sense, and would add to the game if properly implemented. I remained silent because frankly I didn’t have much to add.

65

but you already go in to town to scavenge for materials, adding an incentive to do something everyone already does is pointless. it would also ruin people that want to live in the woods only which is currently hard but viable. what do they do when their stuff starts breaking and none of the materials it takes to fix it are around?

66

but you already go in to town to scavenge for materials, adding an incentive to do something everyone already does is pointless. it would also ruin people that want to live in the woods only which is currently hard but viable. what do they do when their stuff starts breaking and none of the materials it takes to fix it are around?[/quote]

I guess that if you’re living in the wood, you are using stuff made from materials found in the wood, which can be fixed by stuff found in the woods.

67

Appeal to authority.

1: “Everyone does it” and “these people who don’t do it will suffer” are mutually incompatible claims.

It’s also strange to suggest that wilderness survival is “hard”. Wilderness survival is a perfect example of Low Risk, Low Reward gameplay. The risks of wilderness survival are extremely low, the “basics” are very easy to acquire, and the majority of enemies are easy either terminate or avoid entirely.

2: There is no basis to claiming that further incentivising good behaviour is pointless. Quite the opposite in fact.

In this case, increasing resource pressure means that either the player makes more trips into town (More Risk Management = Good), or must make choices into what resources they collect while in town (More Meaningful Choices = Good).

3: What do people living in the woods do when they want to craft any technological item? Or to find some bullets for their scavenged rifle?

They either go into town, find resources innawoods, or “Reality ensues” - They don’t, they drop the rifle, they keep an eye out for another one.

Secondly, remember that repair would primarily use the same materials and tools as crafting. If a player has the resources necessary to craft an item, they have the resources and tools necessary to repair it, and anything else, like oil, is actually a lot easier to come by for a player than things like batteries or firearm repair kits.

At worst, this would force survivalists to use more basic tools (which they have the means to repair and maintain easily) for day to day activities, and to force them to treat any advanced technology as the irreplaceable treasure it is - just as they should be doing already.

68

Appeal to authority.[/quote]

Isn t this Argumentum ad populum instead?

69

Appeal to authority.[/quote]

Isn t this Argumentum ad populum instead?[/quote]

Hah, whoops. You’re totally right, my only excuse is a three year old kicking me in the head while I was posting that.

70

Pantalion, you just derailed the thread which was about skills and grinding recipes, not about tedium in general. Where were we? I think the idea had something to do with “training”, didn’t it?

71

Remember that problems don’t exist in isolation. The tedium of crafting and repair causes knock on effects by making levelling up necessary for certain actions, and making grinding up your skill to reach those levels boring as paint desiccation. If you fix “tedium in general” about these things, you fix the tedium of these things by default.

But yeah, I believe that somewhere in my little tangent was:

1: Consolidate skills: Fabrication handles wood/plastic/plumbing and DIY, Mechanics becomes Metallurgy and handles smithing, welding and basic mechanisms like wheel axles or springs, Survival handles working in stone, chitin, bone and raw furs. Trapping becomes Tinkering and handles complex machinery like clocks and firearms.

Construction and traps merged into these and other skills where appropriate.

Gives: Focus on one skill to sensibly get better at one thing. The “weird” thing in the skill system is being able to forge plate armour but not weld a roof on, or put nails through a 2-by-4 you intend to hit someone with, but not one you intend to lay on the floor for somebody to step on.

Optional: Remove tinkering entirely and subsume complex mechanisms into the appropriate material skill. Even more concentrated skill gains, but mechanics gets a bit overpowered since most mechanisms are metal.

2: “Experiment”: Each item in the game has an Exp value for one or more skills, a Max Level up to where it’s useful (example: basic scrap metal is worth 5 Metallurgy Exp, and is useful up to level 3), and an amount of time it takes to “experiment with”. Each item is consumed in order, and when consumed gives a chance for unlocking recipes involving it, or a recipe for the item itself.

Remove all skill gain from crafting.
Allow attempts on recipes at lower skill levels if recipe is known.
Automemorise recipes on reading a book (incidental, just removes an unnecessary chore)
Remove level-based recipe unlocking for all except the most basic, obvious recipes.
Add “Experiment” command to the game, which opens the inventory (same as Eating or Dropping might) where the player can select items to experiment with (including mass select, as in dropping).
Improve arbitrary levelling mechanics.

Result:
No grinding needed to be able to craft recipes.
No grinding needed to be able to make better items.
No “grinding” at all for crafting skills, just select a command and wait.
No crafting whatsoever unless you actually need the item you will be crafting.

72

I hope to share some alternate points on the topics of skill grinds; simply to add that other games have solved for this in many different ways. Luckily, these are working and playtest-able as well in their respective games.

Diablo III, WoW, and FO3/New Vegas use recipes similar (but not nearly as deep) as CDDA. These all use a general character level to inform what skills can be used and items crafted… which might be worth considering for CDDA.

I’ve heard that Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura is good, but I’ve never played it myself.

Path of Exile was always interesting to me. I don’t think we need a currency sink, but growing off of the character level idea perhaps general XP could be earned and invested into skills in a skill tree?

NEO Scavenger is pretty close to CDDA thematically and they use qualities. Much smaller pool of items to craft.

Stealing some part of Witcher 3’s breaking-down mechanic could be useful. You’re incentivized to explore more for more than just books; by breaking down an extra Glock you might understand how to better craft a gun mod, for example. Giving more options to increase skills and learn recipes rather than re-making a sock 10 times. Having some recipes require disassembly to learn might be a good progression.

73

Im sick of the word ‘tedium’ being used to justify taking out large portions of the game that make things matter. Or simplifying things so that the skyrim tier kiddies can come in and know how to find a door or find their spike recipe without searching for it like a sane person would.

Thats at noone and nothing in particular, though. The idea that say, item damage shouldnt happen because itd be tedium ignores the idea that you could something like a watch has any meaning. Every single watch after the first is redundant.