Changing intelligence to... something more

Perception is useful now - it affects ranged (heavily), night vision and crits. So now intelligence is the weakest stat.
Everything you can have with it, you can have without it. It does not affect most scaling, limits of crafting, book locks etc. It’s just pure quality of life - faster reading, less likely to fail crafting, will get CBMs sooner.
Unless you use Dragon martial arts, but that’s a very specific case.

Changing intelligence to a more general “mind” stat would allow it to actually have a role it can’t be replaced in.
Say, keep all the stuff it affects right now, but also add (some of):

[ul][li]Willpower: resistance to pain, tiredness, addiction, morale scaling. Possibly some HP scaling.[/li]
[li]Better mutation rates? That is, scaling mutation bad/good rate with intelligence with some “you control the alien goo in your body” handwave explanation.[/li]
[li](Once they land)Better CBM limits[/li][/ul]

Basically, intelligence needs something you want when you have everything. Not something that will make you strong faster, but something you still want when you are strong.

Any more ideas?
They shouldn’t be anything like:

[ul][li]Crafting boosts - that’s just quality of life, unless it provides recipes that can’t be gained otherwise[/li]
[li]Limits to interface for those with low intelligence - artificially limiting information goes badly in vast majority of cases[/li]
[li]Limits to control for those with low intelligence - no crap like “if you have low int and addiction, you autodrink nearby booze”[/li][/ul]

Now, it would be better to keep intelligence as such, but I don’t really see good ways of making pure intelligence shine. The “most endgame” use of intelligence is dragon style, which is not pure intelligence flavor-wise, just gamey “scales with intelligence”.

It is a bit of a dump stat, beyond the dragon style.

Turning it into a willpower stat as well makes sense, though the more CBMs thing doesn’t to me - I’m guessing that would mean you’re using your intelligence to find a way to integrate everything together, but I’ve always pictured a limit as being caused by what your body can physically handle. Doesn’t really matter either way.

Perhaps some kind of parts substitution? You need part X to build something, but you can, with a high enough intelligence, make the similar but different part Y work for the same purpose? It might be a little heavy to implement, but it’s a thought.

There’s a few other things it could provide a boost to that I could think up, but the issue I’ve run into so far in pondering it is that it makes just as much sense for other stats to provide a similar boost - for example, being really smart could help you spot traps as you can logic out how they work, but it still makes more sense for Perception to play a bigger role.

Brainstorming follows…

For high INT

Flat bonuses to all skills above level 1:
INT 14 = +1
INT 16 = +2
INT 18 = +3
INT 20 = +4

Bonuses to mutagen creation results. Increase likelihood of positive mutation.

INT 14 = +10% positive / -10 chance of negative mutation
INT 16 = +15% positive / -15
INT 18 = +20% positive / -20
INT 20 = (with cooking 10) complete control: create targeted mutagens

That is to say, mutagens should record the intelligence and skill level of their creator at the time of creation. The game might need imaginary scientists. These scientists would have generated names and stats, and the results of their work (mutagens / serums) could be found all over the world. Or just in a particular lab. Whether these scientists are dead or alive, is a separate matter. Ideally you’d only use mutagens created by someone with two university degrees and 20 years of experience in biochemistry (for example). That is to say, imaginary scientists could have A) education level and B) work experience measured in years.

For low INT, cut learning speed:

INT 8 = -15%
INT 6 = -20%
INT 4 = -30%

Also set caps for certain skills:

computers:
INT 12: max computers = 10
INT 10: max computers = 8
INT 8: max computers = 5
INT 6: max computers = 4
INT 4: max computers = 3

Consider similar caps/tables for each skill individually.

But that is to say you should still be able to able to start with INT 4 and computers 8. You’d be a savant of sorts. You just wouldn’t be able to learn more. Whether or not skill rust should affect this, or to what degree, is another matter. Of course in the long run it’d be smarter (easier) to start with INT 8 and computers 4 IF the choice is given. But something like computers 8 is pretty juicy in a lab start scenario. Also this affects random character starts and RPing.

Problems or challenges may arise when one uses INT boosting drugs. Drug effects should last longer anyway (for reading), and they should have longer lasting side effects, or more insidious side effects that don’t manifest until after sufficient use, but when they do, it’s bad, and it lasts. After all, it should be possible to compensate low INT (or boost moderate INT) with certain drugs, to a degree, and with a price.

Of course books could have hard INT requirements, on top of current soft requirements. Some books could be more accessible than others. Also, consider something like this:
This book requires fabrication 3 OR INT 14.

Higher intelligences could also extract more enjoyment out of challenging reading. But that could be a trait as well, recommended only for high INT characters. I mean, just because you have high INT, doesn’t necessarily mean you enjoy reading. In fact, reading could be really annoying pastime.

Could higher INT characters gravitate towards certain mutations? Such as “Easily Distracted” or “Focused” or “Easily Annoyed” or “Severe Headaches” or “Zen Mind” or…

Should we have traits that are meant only for high INT or low INT characters? Then again, if we go down that road, should there be traits for high STR or PER characters?

High INT characters could also suffer mentally (negative morale) in the presence of lower INT NPCs, but also enjoy more if a given NPC also has high INT. That is to say two INT 18s enjoy each other’s company more than two INT 12s. And between high INT character and low INT NPC, the greater the INT difference, the stronger the negative morale effect.

Should Cata have aspects of different languages? What’s the language base of New England? 99% English or more? Higher INT characters might be able to pick up foreign languages faster, and have more alternative routes to knowledge/objectives at their disposal, assuming there is any foreign language literature around. German cook books? Black box transcripts in French? Survivor notes in Spanish? A character could also start out as multilingual. Higher language skill = the greater portion of “foreign language content” appears in English. For example:

(this message is in Spanish, your Spanish is 3 (38%))

Bro, don’t go ____. We can ____ but then ____. ____ and pick up the ____ . ____ is 3872. -Hector

Something to consider is that it’s also possible that what’s keeping INT back, is the lack of all the other content. And some of us know the game pretty well, and it becomes increasingly harder to bring (more) meaning to INT. :confused:

Hmm, I did not realize int had been nerfed so hard. I usually like playing High int characters, because of how useful a stat it is (especially when playing with skill rust)

It wasn’t nerfed at all.

Oh, I thought he was saying some of int’s uses were pulled and given to perception.

Seems like the last time I looked at the wiki, basically everything used int in some fashion.

Does intelligence have an effect on how well you can treat yourself with first aid? If not, on a high-int character could receive a decent bonus when using healing items.

A boost to real-world learning is not to be underestimated.

Maybe a damage bonus to a character with high int? I assume an intelligent character would learn what is effective on a certain enemy and continue to exploit that weakness.
Perhaps due to anatomical knowledge?

If it isn’t implemented, a character with high-int should be able to bypass certain effects like ‘fear paralysis’ or physical effects like ‘shakes’. Having a character get rid of addictions faster is good too.

As mentioned by another person, high-intelligence characters receiving a flat bonus to all skills would be immensely useful.

A skill boost from intelligence sounds fine, but I think it should be more of a multiplier. Maybe higher base intelligence should raise both the skill cap and the experience gained? For example, the new cap for a skill might be level 15, but it takes the same amount of time to reach as the old level 10.

Some things I think could work:

-Increase combat effectiveness against non-physical enemies. The shadows, the more eldritch nether monsters and other similar entities.

-Chance to resist negative effects of non-physical origin. The evil effect, otherworldly attention, floating eye teleglow, and artifact stat debuffs. Should be really useful if/when the nether becomes explorable.

-Bonuses to NPC interaction. Supposedly int already does this. We might just need to increase the situations in which persuading or trading is desireable.

-Faster timeouts for morale penalties.

-Increase carry volume.

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:9, topic:13046”]Some things I think could work:

-Increase combat effectiveness against non-physical enemies. The shadows, the more eldritch nether monsters and other similar entities.

-Chance to resist negative effects of non-physical origin. The evil effect, otherworldly attention, floating eye teleglow, and artifact stat debuffs. Should be really useful if/when the nether becomes explorable.

-Bonuses to NPC interaction. Supposedly int already does this. We might just need to increase the situations in which persuading or trading is desireable.

-Faster timeouts for morale penalties.

-Increase carry volume.[/quote]

These actually sound really good, especially the increase volume.

EDIT: I just had an idea. Maybe a character with a high intelligence would have a better time commanding, convincing or otherwise intimidating an NPC with a lower int stat.

Say to receive bonuses like better prices, easier intimidation or convincing you’re not hostile, or maybe getting a quicker NPC learning cooldown, or an easier time convincing an NPC to teach them something.

How about like real life?

2 forms of brain activity to sentient beings: Intellect and Wisdom

Intellect: What you can learn from a book.

Wisdom: Logic ; innate mental abilities and deciding what to do with the current capacity of intellect.

Example-
Reading a book is intellect and how fast you read and absorb the information there in. Wisdom would be recipes scaled to the amount of wisdom and the quality of the creation.

not sure how that would be implementable… not even sure you know.

I would start by reusing common mechanics:

  • INT increases XP gains per event FOR ALL SKILLS. That way it would become usefull independently of which skill rust model used (It will also simplify skill rust options: No rust, Caped, Full). Character traits would still be usefull to fine tune this basic behaviour on specific fields. This change by itself would turn INT into a worthy stat by itself, IMHO. OFC, it still has far more value on a Full Skill Rust model.

If the above is not enough, some “Skill Rust independent” benefits of INT (That haven’t been mentioned already):

  • Recipe Memorization. INT should have a dramatic impact on the chances to learn a given recipe and if implementation is possible, into the ammount of recipes you can keep fresh in memory (This can be modeled as a simple total number of recipes with a FIFO model when the cap is reached… Or into a time based race like Full Skill rust, were learning speed compared to forgetting speed trigger an “effective ammount” of recipes a character can keep “fresh”).

  • Overmap Scouting. Instead of Scout and Binoculars operating into multiples of a fixed overmap radius. Intelligence should control the “base radius” while Scout and Binoculars providing ADDITIONS to this radius. For orienting yourself without a GPS, is far more important the mental processing and memory to compare geographical features to establish your local possition than PER, which should just control the quality of the information you perceive. It could also be generalized to increase discovered radius of all current “map revealing” events/items.

  • OPTIONAL “Overmap Decay”. This feature isn’t ingame but INT, instead of controlling the exploration radius, could control “Overmap Decay” were tiles of the overmap become hidden after a certain period since each was last “seen”. The higher the INT the longer a given overmap tile remains “seen” in the world map. OFC, implementing this has a CPU toll to be paid… But would naturally simmulate the fact that most used routes/zones should stay longer into a character’s memory without any further artificial mechanics. If this gameplay-altering feature is ever implemented, Scout trait, memory enhancing CBMs and maybe some Mutations should have a role to play here to provide additional meanings to deal with it beyond stacking INT. Notice that, collateraly, any item/event that can trigger map reveals can be made reusable to “refresh” a given area instead to just trigger mapgen, which will turn them into very valuable items to inherit between characters living in the same world.

Wait, people consider int a dump stat? Considering the int requirement on most high-level books, including those which teach mechanics, electronics, and first aid, all of which are needed to install bionics successfully, I thought int was already one of the most important stats.

The in-game map items (tourist guide, restaurant guide, etc.) seem to indicate that the player has their own map that they record locations on. The prompt says “You mark down such and so on your map” when you use them.

The reading speed penalty is painful, but if you stock up on food you can just tank it and read the books anyway. Or just craftgrind.
At low intelligence you will generally lose some of the CBMs, but you can counter most of it by doing meth and stacking morale.

So in the end intelligence only affects your “rise to power”, then stops mattering. Unlike all other stats which are useful at all times.

I am apparently one of the few vocal supporters of skill rust. I do agree that it should be a slower process, or tied to season length somehow.

I think Intelligence should be changed to memory, since it always seems weird when a genius character makes a dumb mistake because the player is dumb.

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[quote=“BorkBorkGoesTheCode, post:16, topic:13046”]I am apparently one of the few vocal supporters of skill rust. I do agree that it should be a slower process, or tied to season length somehow.

I think Intelligence should be changed to memory, since it always seems weird when a genius character makes a dumb mistake because the player is dumb.[/quote]

I support skill rust. I like the way it creates a play obstacle and soft cap until character is skilled enough to succesfully install basic CBM’s

Int could be:

  • Controlling focus loss/gain
  • Crit % boosting
  • Providing NPC interaction buffs
  • NOT better mutations, unless that involves gating ‘special recipes’ that provide this benefit
  • Maybe special recipes or shortcuts, QOL stuff
  • Overmap site increase
  • Skill Rust benefits. maybe people can finally also play with it on.
  • Aiming/Task completion time bonuses
  • Decreased skill reqs -> 13 int means 1 less skill point req, 17 -> 2 less skill point reqs, etc.
  • Gating professions or scenarios by an int req

Int should be QoL, since int is, irl, a tool of culture and QoL. Int isnt a requirement, but fills a niche that is useful. Willpower checks also sound nice. for stat loss via pain (with high focus, which int would help with) and perhaps if the supernatural psionics via cultists/mycus ever get expanded upon?

currently int barriers are a joke, with the possible exception of intcap skillrust and endgame books

I’m with coolthulu that you generally want any permanent stat like int to remain relevant throughout the game, rather than just being a build/dump stat, which is arguably were it is now.

Potential ‘permanent’ benefits of int:

  • reduced pain penalties.
  • bonuses to avoid addiction type effects.
  • improved rate of morale recovery/loss - morale targets are unchanged, but you might climb faster when low, and possibly drop slower when you’re over your target.
  • Reduce chances of being stunned or KO’d by attacks.
  • Bonuses to some NPC interactions involving fast talking, persuasiveness and the like.
  • Improved effect of medical items/drugs.
  • Reduced chance of component loss or item damage when crafting/deconstructing, even when training skills past your current level.

So basically Int would become the stat that helps you avoid/mitigate many of the disabling attacks in the game, which is obviously quite valuable in end-game circumstances, by the time most of the learning bonuses have run their course.

The component loss bonus would mainly be a training benefit, but would retain some benefit even at higher levels.

Conversely any of these elements could become penalties at 7 int and lower, which could make it a pretty dangerous dump stat.

I don’t have an opinion of its effect on skill rust, as I intend to keep that disabled permanently regardless. I played with it on for a long time, found it obnoxious regardless of the implementation, and have shelved it. :wink:

The in-game map items (tourist guide, restaurant guide, etc.) seem to indicate that the player has their own map that they record locations on. The prompt says "You mark down such and so on your map" when you use them.

If you check the repository and its outstanding issues (https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/19053)… Dev team is trying to create a “map erasing” mechanic linked to “memory” for a while now. INT is the perfect stat to control the process… So yes, current players seem to have a Map that is “magically” updated with pinpoint accuracy…

…If you put yourself now in the skin of a survivor WITHOUT GPS data… And try to ellaborate and keep accurate long distance navigational data by hand, have you considered?:

  • The time needed to simply translate and link different map sources together?

  • How can you update your physical map when the source is digital?

  • That you spend exactly 0 time into all this activities?

That’s why I marked the feature as OPTIONAL… ATM all mapping activities seems to be based on assuming that EVERY SINGLE character comes with somekind of hightech map device able to integrate digital sources, scanning physical maps, with a permanent link to a GPS source and with such processing power were all the activities associated to cartography can be done in just 1 turn.

That’s why INT is but the 1st parameter involved into the whole process, you need to:

  • Add to any item/event that reveals map an ORIGIN coordinate (The “radius” and info filter is already into the game. Better than a radius, ALL map sources should operate as boxes… Which makes all associated code FAR lighter for the CPU). So later, if a player uses it again it will “detect” the same set of overmap tiles it did generate originally. This can be as manual as to force the player to “reread” his/her map collection each time the overmap tiles dissapear or… Manage it transparently by marking overmap tiles contained into “maps” carried (or readily accessible) by the player as “unforgettable”. Notice that most physical map sources come with tile type filters, meaning a “refresh” will only “detect back” certain types of tiles… With a smart setup of physical map filters and a “manual reread” paradigm, players can select which long distance features they want to see always, from the ones that want to forget to simplify their “world maps”.

  • Create a specific Digital mapping device (An APP for an E-Link Tablet?) able to jack into digital sources that store mapping. Obviously all kind of high-tech gadgets can appear here at diminishing the reliance on human memory but, most of them have a common trait… They relay on a GPS network to synch different sources/scales. Want to keep INT important? Lore should include that GPS satellite networks went nuts and unreliable during the chaos (Or at least the Civilian portion of such GPS networks) so Digital Maps are just a more comfortable to carry/consult version of the physical maps.