Request to focus on Z levels and NPC overhaul for next few releases

Game Talk The Drawing Board
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[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:57, topic:5349”]"refuse submissions of new food/weapons/clothing"
No. This wouldn’t help anything get done faster, and is something I’m generally against. As has been pointed out, item additions generally don’t require careful code review, so they aren’t holing anything up on the code front. [/quote]

I2amroy made it sound as though one of the problems/time sinks was the vast number of commits that needed sorting through . Cutting down on content submissions would be one way to do this, as would focussing them. If it’s a complete non-issue time wise (and I can’t see it not being really) then that’s fine, and it just comes back to the same old issue that Halberdsturgeon states, that we’re completely swamped by junk to sort through.

Regardless, my point mainly changed into the dev team suggesting a way forward with development/putting up some non-monetary bounties on smaller stuff and the like. I know my local university hacking society have a leaderboard/points/forum stuff for people who contribute to projects and it’s worked well to encourage people. There must be tons of smaller stuff people with low coding experience could do which wouldn’t be more hair clips and jackets.

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You’re ignoring everything I’m saying, so I’ll do you the same courtesy. I’m done here.

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Kevin, I admire the work you’ve done on DDA, but I wish you’d listen to this complaint with an open mind rather than just assuming everyone who wants something removed from the game has a bone to pick and no valid gameplay-based argument to present.

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I feel the need to point out that ultimately this is a open source project, and people who contribute to it, first and foremost, making a game for themselves . Not for some audience, this is especially relevant to contributors who join in later, so it’s unavoidable that they will add some of the sub-culture, tributes or references to their favorite shows/characters/game/books/whatever.

If a developer of your favorite game is a brony, then he may want to insert some MLP references even if you don’t like it. The developing process may receive influence from the community (both the contributors and the users), so let’s say the 90% community voted “NO” to pony, then either that developer ignore it and do it anyway, he who has the power to code, even in a so-called “democracy” enviroment like open source development, will naturally have a higher privilege. Or the developer give in and remove said pony reference but then he’s isn’t making a game for himself anymore, which isn’t different much from coding a game for a random client AND without being paid.

In conclusion, open source project is a reflection of what the makers of it (contributor) wanted, not what the user wanted. What the user wanted only happen if it overlap with what the maker wanted.

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[quote=“infectedmochi, post:64, topic:5349”]I feel the need to point out that ultimately this is a open source project, and people who contribute to it, first and foremost, making a game for themselves . Not for some audience, this is especially relevant to contributors who join in later, so it’s unavoidable that they will add some of the sub-culture, tributes or references to their favorite shows/characters/game/books/whatever.

If a developer of your favorite game is a brony, then he may want to insert some MLP references even if you don’t like it. The developing process may receive influence from the community (both the contributors and the users), so let’s say the 90% community voted “NO” to pony, then either that developer ignore it and do it anyway, he who has the power to code, even in a so-called “democracy” enviroment like open source development, will naturally have a higher privilege. Or the developer give in and remove said pony reference but then he’s isn’t making a game for himself anymore, which isn’t different much from coding a game for a random client AND without being paid.

In conclusion, open source project is a reflection of what the makers of it (contributor) wanted, not what the user wanted. What the user wanted only happen if it overlap with what the maker wanted.[/quote]
Submitting anything for public consumption is the threshold beyond which you are no longer making it for yourself, you’re making it for others. People have the right not to release their work for public consumption. I do this myself; I make changes to my game that I don’t contribute through GitHub because I know nobody else would be interested in them.

Whilst people contributing to an open-source project are free to add things like vanity material, or clutter, or references/homages to their personal hobby or interest, or anything else they please, ideally they would ask themselves whether it improves the game for other people playing it before submitting it. And I think this is failing to happen much too often.

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ive moved this here, felt it was relevant so why start a new thread
my thoughts on NPCs which i am much more interested in than any other area of current development that i know of

been playing with a NPC follower for an ingame day now; the biggest and most critical thing i feel lacking is the ability to check the health status of the NPC, as i do not currently see a way. there are some bugs traversing the conversation screens still; my guy had me kill a jabberwocky and now he wants to kill 100 zombies; every time i talk to him it gives me the debug info on the mission, also the screen blacking out seems to be an issue until you press a button sometimes…

other than that, it would be good to see a full list of visible equipment; there should be a “come here, stay there, go yonder” system or some such; NPCs do not show up on monster/critter list (‘V’ key); item pickup preferences (i.e. find a better weapon or armor, look for drugs/meds/valuables, or dont worry about items and fight for your life etc); also i think sleeping in shifts should be a concern if you wanna try and work that in there or something as well as managing shared resources like food, water and drugs… something akin to dwarf fortress “designations” comes to mind, i.e. designating a square as food storage or weapons stockpiles, or a set of squares, more generally, as a “home” or “base” area or a meeting area if you get split up or whatever

just thinking freely at this point hehe but those first ones are my personal recommendations, especially since NPCs and factions seem to be the Next Big Goal (at least you have my vote for it, even above Roving Hoardes and wayyy above z-levels, which i PERSONALLY view as overly complex with little gameplay benefit, though i completely appreciate the novelty of the idea and think it would be cool… there are more fundamental things to hammer out IMHO)

i think NPCs make a swell addition to the game and alleviates a bit of the cabin fever. i cant wait for them to start playing a bigger (and more stable) role in the game. id like to see it lean more towards party mechanics than roleplay or narrative purposes; i dont care much for the dialogue and social interaction, missions and whatnot, i go more for the gameplay benefits and potential for emergent storytelling.

OH! and before i forget, i also had the inclination to want to train my NPC companion as opposed to vice versa, i thought that would be cool, to amass a bunch of followers and teach them all karate at a dojo and subsequently PROFIT hehe

also, if there is a thorough repository on current NPC mechanics as they stand could someone link it? ive looked around wiki & forums but cant seem to find anything thorough enough to suffice (and i am just illiterate/lazy enough not to sift through the code)

cant wait to see what you all come up with

concerning the last page or two of this thread,

[spoiler]my opinion is that with a situation like this, once the community of contributors grows to a certain point, there will just statistically be differences among them. IMHO the only way to counter this is with a completely impartial director of sorts (or a small group of “directors”), who necessarily plays and enjoys the game, who knows enough about programming to work with devs but not contribute anything him/herself (avoiding creative differences such as these), who is socially amicable and unconditional in their judgement of peers (of which we ALL are, dont forget), who can communicate between the growing core dev team, the similarly growing content dev team, and the hopefully growing fanbase, and who has no bias towards the future of the game.

someone who doesnt care enough about the game to be possessive, but who cares about and enjoys it enough to serve as a mediator between the growing number of political and developmental entities that are surfacing in the community, and who DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE to the game in any other major way, again to quash any creative differences. thats teh important part. take it seriously, but don’t obsess.

it would hypothetically be up to the core dev team or at least the oldest constituents to elect such a person(s).

i suppose the other route is true and complete crowd-sourcing or open-sourcing and just letting everyone do what they want. another surprisingly even uglier route is that one person or party asserts their own agenda over that of the community, no matter how little, which is inherently going to be biased toward their own wishes and away from those of others, whenever such disputes arise.
[/spoiler]

i guess what im saying is that i personally think we need someone (or someones) who we can all agree on to have the final word in decisions, who we can all trust with heavy decisions, and who we will not resent for choosing something we were against. such a person should not contribute to the game in any other way. kind of like a jury or something.

of course thats just my own inflated armchair philosophy, and i dont really know who does what so i hope i dont offend anyone.
do you guys have like an official roster of at least the core devs or something? who should we be thanking? lol

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That won’t happen most of the times though, people contribute to an open source project for free without getting paid because it’s something they enjoy doing, they care/love the software enough to contribute to it. This normally translate to implementing features they liked. Putting their code to public mean they think other people may like it, but as I said before in a way it’s their code, even if it’s open source.

But the thing is, contributor isn’t a fixed position, the former user may someday become a contributor too, and as a contributor they can influence the project themselves. This manifests in CDDA as the mod manager, so someone don’t like the medieval-themed item, they made the medieval mod pack which mean now you have the option to play the game without those items.

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[quote=“infectedmochi, post:67, topic:5349”]That won’t happen most of the times though, people contribute to an open source project for free without getting paid because it’s something they enjoy doing, they care/love the software enough to contribute to it. This normally translate to implementing features they liked. Putting their code to public mean they think other people may like it, but as I said before in a way it’s their code, even if it’s open source.

But the thing is, contributor isn’t a fixed position, the former user may someday become a contributor too, and as a contributor they can influence the project themselves. This manifests in CDDA as the mod manager, so someone don’t like the medieval-themed item, they made the medieval mod pack which mean now you have the option to play the game without those items.[/quote]

I’d have absolutely no problem with all of the stalker suits, flaming swords, pop tart/beer brands and other esoteric things being made modular so that people could choose whether to use them or not. That’s more or less an ideal solution to me.

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Saying ‘everyone should be allowed to submit whatever they like as long as it doesn’t break the game’ will lead to a terrible drop in coherence and a drop in quality. It can’t not do, because everyone has a different vision and those visions won’t work together. Open source has never meant ‘anyone goes’ - open source works with a coherent vision and guidance (or a strong review process like DCSS), and at the moment DDA doesn’t have one. The design document is a good starting point but more guidance for the direction of development could only help.

To be honest, I wouldn’t mind if a key developer said ‘I want this game to have MLP references in’ or whatever as long as for the main branch there was some sort of coherence/stricter addition policy, as there’s a lot of crap that gets through. What saddens me is that the game has such potential, and I’ve seen so many people turned off by the vanity additions and junk.

This really isn’t an attack, and I know developers/contributors feel like their hard work isn’t being appreciated - but that’s really not the case. It’s an appreciation of that which makes me feel so strongly about this, as the poor content additions are watering down your excellent work.

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I will agree some of the crazier things (such as heat blades) should probably be moved to a similar default mod to allow for easy toggling. References (such as Granades) can probably be moved to another (call it “Wacky Cataclysm”, maybe). Things like survivor suits I’m not so sure about. I mean yes, they probably need some balancing, but if a person was living in some sort of crazy apocalypse then something like that is probably what they would end up wearing in the long run after all.

As for commits yes, large amounts of commits can be a problem, but it tends to be when we have a large number of not just new item+recipe things. Reviewing an item/recipe addition PR takes literally a quick glance for any grievous balance/theme problems. Adding a new item use function, on the other hand, or editing game code requires the developer not only to check to make sure that it works (i.e. compiles and does what it is supposed to) but also that the method used to accomplish the task is sound and cost effective, and the formatting of the code added/changed is good as well. So while it is a problem, it’s not really related to the “mass amount of item/recipe PR’s” idea, but is rather a sign that we are actually making forward progress on other things.

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Guess we should reduce all food to [Meat item], [Veggie item], and [Junk food] for you, huh?

The vast array of miscellaneous stuff is very immersive for me. Luckily for you, with the .json framework you should be perfectly capable of going through the files and deleting everything you don’t like to make the game you want to play. And the rest of us can be happy with how it is.

(edit: Kevin is totally right to be ignoring most of you.)

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No. That’s the worst sort of reductive, pedantic statement, and I’ve seen it so many times that it’s become infuriating. Variety is fine, I’ve asked for it in the past. But too many trivial additions in one focused area dilutes the rest of the game. It isn’t an all or nothing equation. And with the introduction of the mod manager, there is no reason why both people who love all the random clutter in their game and people who find it distracting can’t both get what they want - aside from people like you, who feel the need to get offended at any kind of critical statement at all.

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FWIW hairpins just got a use aside from helping your hairstyle: you can improvised-lockpick with 'em. Takes about 6 Mechanics to have a chance, and best to keep a soldering iron or similar available to repair it.

One less “trash” item, I guess.

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Hear hear - there’s far too much reductionism and taking things to their logical extremes on this forum, whilst taking things severely personally. Just as it’s an open source game and everyone can contribute - everyone can criticise as well. I really wish everyone would take a step back and understand that we’re all extremely grateful for the work being done and that any criticism is out of a wish to make the game better.

Regardless, mods are the way forward - and a non-defaulted on ‘expanded/cosmetic’ mod (including clothing, consumables and other stuff which is non-normal/fandom/niche) would sort out a lot of the problems with some people feeling it being bloat. I know earlier their was an edict that everything already in the game had to be defaulted on - I agree for the most part, but I really don’t think it’s necessary for the ‘expanded’ items.

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Do I smell z-levels?

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/6560

This is but a small step, but an important one.

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[quote=“KA101, post:73, topic:5349”]FWIW hairpins just got a use aside from helping your hairstyle: you can improvised-lockpick with 'em. Takes about 6 Mechanics to have a chance, and best to keep a soldering iron or similar available to repair it.

One less “trash” item, I guess.[/quote]

Well, if you have level 6 mechanics, I don’t think breaking into a locked house is much of an issue :x Unless there is new content that has locked doors.

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Considering you can make a few dozen (makeshift)lockpick kits with common material from the start with no skills.

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Guess we should reduce all food to [Meat item], [Veggie item], and [Junk food] for you, huh?

The vast array of miscellaneous stuff is very immersive for me. Luckily for you, with the .json framework you should be perfectly capable of going through the files and deleting everything you don’t like to make the game you want to play. And the rest of us can be happy with how it is.

(edit: Kevin is totally right to be ignoring most of you.)[/quote]

Yeah, I have to agree with other responses to this. While I am very sensitive to any claim that Kevin and other people are focusing on the “wrong” things, your dismissive, strawman/false-choice dilemma response is beyond insulting; it’s downright stupid.

Criticizing the variety of randomly spawned items is perfectly legitimate. It does not automatically imply the opposite (no variety, as you described). If you can’t talk about things like a grownup, stop posting.

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Guess we should reduce all food to [Meat item], [Veggie item], and [Junk food] for you, huh?

The vast array of miscellaneous stuff is very immersive for me. Luckily for you, with the .json framework you should be perfectly capable of going through the files and deleting everything you don’t like to make the game you want to play. And the rest of us can be happy with how it is.

(edit: Kevin is totally right to be ignoring most of you.)[/quote]

i agree that the amount of content is very immersive
… and i guess that Kevin should probably focus on … working on the game? in a general sort of sense…?
but no… we should not reduce all food to meat veggie junk food…

give love to the forum hehe

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Let’s talk about Z-levels and NPCs here…