I calculated the DPM of some end-game melee weapons with end-game encumbrance

[DemAvalon]

[quote=“DeWolf, post:16, topic:14241”][quote=“DemAvalon, post:15, topic:14241”][quote=“i2amroy, post:13, topic:14241”]This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]
just put this into the game, problem solved.

make sure it’s somehow smart enough to use its gun.[/quote]
So an armored zombie that can use a gun?[/quote]
An armored zombie hulk that can use a gun (those guys are huge compared to normal humans)

[DeWolf]

[quote=“DemAvalon, post:17, topic:14241”][quote=“DeWolf, post:16, topic:14241”][quote=“DemAvalon, post:15, topic:14241”][quote=“i2amroy, post:13, topic:14241”]This is a good point, though we could use some form of more heavily armored zombie for later in the game.
i2amroy gets evil glow in his eyes[/quote]
just put this into the game, problem solved.

make sure it’s somehow smart enough to use its gun.[/quote]
So an armored zombie that can use a gun?[/quote]
An armored zombie hulk that can use a gun (those guys are huge compared to normal humans)[/quote]
Weird my interpretations of zombie were ones that were either slightly bigger or substantially larger that space marines(aren’t space marines like 10 feet tall?).

[DemAvalon]

Weird my interpretations of zombie were ones that were either slightly bigger or substantially larger that space marines(aren’t space marines like 10 feet tall?).

Just about (defenitly with terminator armor) without it though I’m not sure, I’m not really sure how tall zombie hulks are supposed to be, I just picture the tank from Left 4 Dead, and given the description of “arms as wide as trash cans” ,so maybe Speez mareens would be more of zombie brute without armor

[DeWolf]

[quote=“DeWolf, post:18, topic:14241”]Weird my interpretations of zombie were ones that were either slightly bigger or substantially larger that space marines(aren’t space marines like 10 feet tall?).

Just about (defenitly with terminator armor) without it though I’m not sure, I’m not really sure how tall zombie hulks are supposed to be, I just picture the tank from Left 4 Dead, and given the description of “arms as wide as trash cans” ,so maybe Speez mareens would be more of zombie brute without armor

It also depends one what kind of trash cans and also my spatial awareness may possibly be a bit shit.

[kevin.granade]

I’d place space marines (def. without armor) at brute size, in armor, probably nearly hulk sized, with terminator armor probably a bit bigger.

Ironically, trying to balance it by adding more armored enemies could easily lead to situation where variety is lost, because everyone needs to be trained in the use of can openers.

Everyone needing to have options for dealing with armor is not a “variety is lost” scenario, a situation (which we likely have right now) where you can pick a middle-of-the-road option like a katana and use that on everything without thinking about it is.
That kind of argument is how you end up with Final Fantasy’s 5% elemental resistances and vulnerabilities, i.e.you ignore it because it doesn’t really mater.

tweaking values based on average DPS without accounting for specials is going to be wrong

Either way, modified DPT is the only viable way

Modified DPT != DPT, so I suspect we agree, at least in broad strokes.

[NuG]

So why does the survivor machete suck, because it has low damage per move compared to some of the better options? Could someone dumb it down for me?

I just found I was able to craft a survivor machete for the first time and did, but now I am wondering if I shouldn’t have. I don’t have the recipes for any of the Japanese weapons yet, am having trouble finding the book.

[harison86]

[quote=“NuG, post:22, topic:14241”]So why does the survivor machete suck, because it has low damage per move compared to some of the better options? Could someone dumb it down for me?

I just found I was able to craft a survivor machete for the first time and did, but now I am wondering if I shouldn’t have. I don’t have the recipes for any of the Japanese weapons yet, am having trouble finding the book.[/quote]
It doesn’t suck suck like the chainsaw weapons, it’s actually just fine for how easy/difficult it is to obtain, and it’s one of the best weapons to use with Eskrima or Silat, which I had not been accounting for. The survivor machete has a few boons that make it worthwhile, so I’ll be editing the post now, since evidently I was being misleading. You didn’t make a mistake, go chop some zombie faces.

[DemAvalon]

Yeah the combat chainsaw was a huge disappointment, considering you need to find a chainsaw in the first place, it makes noise, needs fuel and its bulky, you would think it would be an amazing weapon to compensate! but no…

maybe there should be another tier of chainsaw that you craft, (make it even less bulky, add a proper combat grip that kind of thing) or a technique to it like just pushing it into the enemy for a bit, I don’t know.

or maybe a military equivilant, like the ripper from Fallout.

[NuG]

Cool thanks.

Yeah there is that pic in one of the threads here(wemakebadsuggestionsandcomeupwithideas thread I believe) of an assault rifle “swiss army knife” a la chainsaw blade as a bayonet. Something small like that with a nice grip(minus the gun) shouldn’t be too tough to handle, and should tear through flesh!

Also, what about a pole arm type weapon with one of those blades on the end, kind of like one of those extend a pole trimmers you see people cutting small limbs of trees up high off with… might be too awkward as a weapon, but interesting none the less.

[DemAvalon]

Yeah there is that pic in one of the threads here(wemakebadsuggestionsandcomeupwithideas thread I believe) of an assault rifle “swiss army knife” a la chainsaw blade as a bayonet. Something small like that with a nice grip(minus the gun) shouldn’t be too tough to handle, and should tear through flesh!

You mean this http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/zxcs-blk_-utg_.jpg

The way I think of making a combat chainsaw not that akward (a chainsword) would be to remove the gas tank and make it run on UPS, like those ferrosomething rifles, so its less bulky and runs on a reneable power source.

[NuG]

Yeah that thing! lol

They have small electric chainsaws I believe(IRL), not hugely powerful, but for flesh it… well it would probably still suck a lot to get cut by it.

So I found a katana, and have used one before… I don’t have any martial arts for swords yet, just krav maga edged (and am not sure if that even does anything unless using hand to hand), It is better than the survivor machete, yes?

[harison86]

So I found a katana, and have used one before… I don’t have any martial arts for swords yet, just krav maga edged (and am not sure if that even does anything unless using hand to hand), It is better than the survivor machete, yes?

Yes, without martial arts the katana is far better than the survivor machete. Unless you find a book for Silat or Eskrima, use the katana.

[Coolthulhu]

Everyone needing to have options for dealing with armor is not a “variety is lost” scenario

Under current melee damage mechanics it somewhat is - at the moment melee skills are strongly tied to their role.
Katanas are stupidly powerful mostly due to that stupid martial art, which grants flat damage increase (this goes before all scaling and armor). Without it, they only get 7 (pre scaling) cutting damage on zombie soldiers.
So if the armored enemies were tailored to defeat niten-powered bullshit and actually managed it, they’d also be highly likely make non-niten cutting weapons not worth specializing in. And specialization is the way to go - when you need thousands of hits to level up a melee skill, it’s not worth putting them in the subpar one.

[kevin.granade]

And specialization is the way to go - when you need thousands of hits to level up a melee skill, it’s not worth putting them in the subpar one.

The whole point is having no skill be the one true skill, you either need to invest in multiple skills or have strategies to allow you to deal with certain scenarios without doing so.

[deoxy]

[quote=“NuG, post:27, topic:14241”]So I found a katana, and have used one before… I don’t have any martial arts for swords yet, just krav maga edged (and am not sure if that even does anything unless using hand to hand), It is better than the survivor machete, yes?

Yes, without martial arts the katana is far better than the survivor machete. Unless you find a book for Silat or Eskrima, use the katana.[/quote]

Meh, katanas aren’t that great. Without any martial arts, I’d take the machete over the katana every time - almost exactly the same DPS (unless you’re CRAZY encumbered), better hit bonus, more swings.

Basically, you miss less, missing costs you less when you do it, and you don’t waste nearly as much damage in overkill, meaning you get more KILLS over the same time period, which is the real thing we care about. Only weakness is enemies with high armor (and the katana isn’t the best for dealing with them, either -the nodachi, zweihander, or sledge hammer are all better for that).

Now, with Niten, I’d still take the wakazashi over the katana, but I’d take either over almost anything else… unless I have eskrima or silat, and then I’m right back to the machete.

[NuG]

Cool I need to find one of those martial arts books then, and then use the correct weapon with it. Which will be a first for me, I usually have the weapon and no skill, or find the skill early(like in lab escape) and not get to a point where I have the weapon to use it yet lol.

The number in parenthesis in the main chart under D/M (enc.), is the damage/move with the encumbrance mention in OP, right? Not taking into account any styles or anything, and looking at that and then the moves/attack… theoretically you would want a high D/M, and a low M/A… right? I felt kind of dumb asking about the chart yesterday, so I took another look… is my brain fried or are my synapses firing?

[harison86]

The number in parenthesis in the main chart under D/M (enc.), is the damage/move with the encumbrance mention in OP, right? Not taking into account any styles or anything, and looking at that and then the moves/attack… theoretically you would want a high D/M, and a low M/A… right? I felt kind of dumb asking about the chart yesterday, so I took another look… is my brain fried or are my synapses firing?

You are correct, your synapses are firing.

[NuG]

[quote=“NuG, post:32, topic:14241”]The number in parenthesis in the main chart under D/M (enc.), is the damage/move with the encumbrance mention in OP, right? Not taking into account any styles or anything, and looking at that and then the moves/attack… theoretically you would want a high D/M, and a low M/A… right? I felt kind of dumb asking about the chart yesterday, so I took another look… is my brain fried or are my synapses firing?

You are correct, your synapses are firing.[/quote]

[Coolthulhu]

The whole point is having no skill be the one true skill, you either need to invest in multiple skills or have strategies to allow you to deal with certain scenarios without doing so.

It should be like this, but it isn’t. And adding more enemies may actually worsen it.

Cutting weapons are clearly the best because of katanas, niten, machete+silat/eskrima, monoblade+combatives.
Introducing more armored enemies would hurt cutting skill, but it would also hurt stabbing skill.
While stabbing is better at armor piercing than cutting, it generally doesn’t have the raw damage to get through armors - cutting does. Ironically it’s the least armor-piercing (IRL) swords which are the best at it in the game: the japanese swords (with niten). Piercing weapons lack the heavy hitters of cutting, that’s why they don’t compete well (awl pike exists, but is very slow). The only really strong piercing weapons are rifles.

This is partly due to a weird mechanic of multiple damage types: each damage type takes 100% of reduction from armor. So a fire axe (20/20) against a plate armor (16/16) will deal only 4/4 damage before scaling. But a katana (4/31) will deal 0/15.

[DemAvalon]

What about adding an armor piercing stat to weapons like what bullets have?, that way melee weapons designed to bypass armor could be used to do just that, using coolthulhu example:

So a fire axe (20/20) AP:5 against a plate armor (16/16) will deal 9/9 damage before scaling. a katana (4/31) AP 0 will deal 0/15.

Total damage: fireaxe = 18 katana is still 15

also, bashing weapons lacks a weapon with reach atack so what about polehammers?