Extending the game

Seconded, I certainly don’t think it should turn into the player being a demi-god that just dominates everything. Sure, with enough mutations and things that might be one way to go (and a fun one), but I really don’t want that to be the main way the game finishes up.

I’d like to see you go from slightly futuristic modern society into a proper post-apocalyptic wasteland, and then rebuild from there. I think that’d have a lot more longevity and be a lot more exciting than just dominating everything, which in my mind is only fun once or twice.

demigod-hood is basically an option now, and will continue to be, at the cost of discarding your humanity. We’re also going to keep working on content aimed at players that want to stay within human normal bounds, whether that means disabling those features or that the player ignores the meta-human options.

I agree with John. I don’t find the idea of building characters that just become larger and larger steamrollers to be appealing or challenging at all. I’m waiting for the point at which the endgame of Cataclysm revolves around organising survivors and carving a lasting bastion of hope out of the landscape, rather than just running around obliterating everything for shits and giggles.

John, Binky and Halberd are right.
Becoming a demigod/steamroller defeats the whole idea behind roguelikes. Roguelikes are supposed to challenge the player every step of the way.

I do not see why both options could not remain on the table.

As a third conciliatory path we could turn late game Cataclysm into God-like mode where the player indirectly influences population of NPCs. It could be both benevolent or evil (or plain neutral observation): on one hand helping them to survive and grow in the hostile environment or being some sort of dark “mage” who sends waves of nether scum and other special effects to bring them to their inevitable doom.

What’s more important, I think the game should steer in the direction of more procedural generation and self-evolution, where interactions are not effects of hard-coded behaviour but fall out of general “physical” rules. As crazy as DF simulational fixation is it’s greatest charm shines when one encounters unintential results of one’s actions.

Lastly, Cataclysm should let players create content inside the game and share it with “one-button” ease not through labourious means of editing “magical” files or merely showing off screen-shots on the forum…

anywayz, keeps on dreamin,
eai

[quote=“elauminx, post:25, topic:5691”]I do not see why both options could not remain on the table.

As a third conciliatory path we could turn late game Cataclysm into God-like mode where the player indirectly influences population of NPCs. It could be both benevolent or evil (or plain neutral observation): on one hand helping them to survive and grow in the hostile environment or being some sort of dark “mage” who sends waves of nether scum and other special effects to bring them to their inevitable doom.

What’s more important, I think the game should steer in the direction of more procedural generation and self-evolution, where interactions are not effects of hard-coded behaviour but fall out of general “physical” rules. As crazy as DF simulational fixation is it’s greatest charm shines when one encounters unintential results of one’s actions.[/quote]

I think that’s definitely a fine outcome for some games, and is a path that we kinda already have with mutations and the like (the NPC behavior would just need to take your mutations/strength into account). However I just don’t think that it should be one that’s focused on - it’ll kinda happen on it’s own as simulation gets expanded. However, I really think there’s only so much enjoyment you can get over late game super-domination (hence why I’m strongly behind soft capping it, so you never get uber powered without dangerous mutations and stuff) so I really think we should position that as a desirable long term goal.

Lastly, Cataclysm should let players create content inside the game and share it with "one-button" ease not through labourious means of editing "magical" files or merely showing off screen-shots on the forum...

This is kinda another topic, but I don’t think that would really be possible or desirable within the current framework of the game. Editing the ‘magical’ json files is incredibly easy (it really is), and rigging up an in game creator and exporter sounds way more work than it’s worth for such little gain - especially as it would absolutely flood the game with mindless copies of items and vanity stuff ‘Steve Smith’s shotgun of super slaying’.

[quote=“Binky, post:26, topic:5691”][quote=“elauminx, post:25, topic:5691”]I do not see why both options could not remain on the table.

As a third conciliatory path we could turn late game Cataclysm into God-like mode…

As crazy as DF simulational fixation is it’s greatest charm shines when one encounters unintential results of one’s actions.[/quote]

I think that’s definitely a fine outcome for some games,…
…However I just don’t think that it should be one that’s focused on…
…so I really think we should position that as a desirable long term goal.[/quote]

Right: not the main or only goal, but in a way it is how the game shapes itself ATM kinda unintensionally. Depending on how the development of the engine (aside from the content) turns out it might be possible to cut it “down” (contentwise) to one or other end-game, or make it possible for the player to choose his style. It’s not unheard of for video games or roguelikes to have multiple ending scenarios, for example in ADOM one could go the lawful path and save the world or become the new chaos god or even be the chaotic saviour of the world AFAIR…
My point was to not quibble overly considering current state of Cataclysm.

Lastly, Cataclysm should let players create content inside the game and share it with "one-button" ease not through labourious means of editing "magical" files or merely showing off screen-shots on the forum...

This is kinda another topic…
…way more work than it’s worth for such little gain - especially as it would absolutely flood the game with mindless copies of items and vanity stuff ‘Steve Smith’s shotgun of super slaying’.

Perhaps. What I had in mind was being able to share the in-game creations, limited by the game mechanics, mainly buildings and vehicles, as a start. As good as procedural generation is it doesn’t have the organic feel of intentional creations of a human being. It’s sometimes readily apparent in the city layouts, so as a next step we could augment city mapgen with a library of multi-tile specially designed areas, like suburbs, city centers, industrial, shopping, or “sensibly” mixed…

Just an idea, though,
eai

Yeah, you were reading it wrong.

I’ve nothing against organizing NPC factions and such. Just wanted to point out that having to scrape everything together isn’t necessarily fun either, and at times it’s nice to be able to do well.

If you put in effort, you ought to obtain some meaningful results. A decent mutation-sequence isn’t easy and makes other aspects much more difficult, so I’d call that “effort”.

“Arbitrary clock” was that doomsday-timer stuff. I don’t think that adds anything I’d want to play.

Ohh yeah its not that mutations are an easy way to attain a demi-god status .

My comment was more along the lines that I personally don’t find the demigod/overlord skill level to be very enjoyable, regardless of whaatever method or effort you had to endure to attain it. so I wanted to ask if the design of the game required progression into that state or more actually idf the end challenges were going to be designed under the assumption that your character is a god, instead of focusing in the more social and mundane aspects.

I see that a mix of both is planed, just that the demigod way is the more developed one now (the buggy NPCs are to blame for surely) works well by me.

Again: I flat out have no interest in playing a “demigod” or anything approaching one. I’ve already reached the point where I often stop playing characters out of disinterest because they’re simply too powerful and make the mid to late game boring compared to the beginning of the game, and I’m not alone in that.

Yeah, I certainly don’t want it to go that way, although I can imagine with lots of mutations (and once NPC’s get thoughts like fear and admiration) it’d be easy for the player to become a sort of demi-god (as Kevin says, at the cost of your humanity). I just dislike the current trajectory (or what it seems like) of the player just getting infinitely more powerful as I think once you’ve done that once or twice, most people will completely lose interest. Sure, let them wizmode it or whatever, but I think for DDA to evolve we need some sort overall balance.

Back to the topic at hand. is nerfing long lasting food something that is in general agreement? It’s one of the few that I’d be able to do without having a huge dig in the code, which would make things easier. If someone could point me to where the variable is for how long it takes to go off that could be extended somewhat to make up for it? GM foods and whatnot would mean things would last longer so it wouldn’t break realism too much. Similarly, a lack of tinned food is due to people less keen on prepackaged stuff (as we’re already seeing in RL) and any escapees taking it with them/raiding other supplies.

I firmly believe that encouraging the player to actually have to go and scavenge for food would improve the gameplay no end. Currently within 3-4 houses I can pretty much max out on food that I’ll need until I’m super powerful. Therefore, I’m going to suggest pretty much halving the spawn rate of all canned/long lasting food. This won’t affect beginners, as they’ll be able to eat the fresh food which will be abundant until they find their feet, yet it’ll mean more exploration, more survival and a gradual increase in difficulty

I’m strongly against rewriting the basic scenario of the game (removing large stocks of non-perishable food that exist in reality, relative to the number of survivors) in the name of game balance, I’ve said it many times, there is always a way to achieve your goals without resorting to that kind of thing.

  1. heavier penalties for “non-tasty” food, plays well with a system for getting tired of eating the same things all the tieme.
    2.looting happening in the background.
  2. higher benefits for fresh and cooked foods (both nutrition and morale wise)
    that’s off the top of my head. please respect the setting when you propose balance changes.

I know I’m a new to the forum, I’m not the most attentive gamer, and I don’t how practical any of it would be code-wise either…but may I offer some suggestion? Spoiler tag’d for references to [Fun]

[spoiler]

One thing I can think of is altering minimum consumption to match a fairly generous supply. This can apply to food, raw materials, guns, ammo, bionics, ect. Like, one of the things I notice about burnt out bionics is that apparently you can wreck bionics by overcharging them. Yet there’s no risk to the player of losing an activated bionic when they’re facing down shocker zombies. Basically, there should be a more potential situations where they’ll have to use/risk their piles of stuff or end up rolling a new character.

Another partial solution would be to put some more locks on some of the higher tier gear. Take ID cards for example. While I know labs and posts have been overrun or evacuated by the time the game begins, it seems odd that these facilities are so easy to loot once you get past the critters. Like for labs, one swipe or electrohack/fingerhack will get you through the door. These are supposed to top secret facilities dedicated to defending against the Sino-Russian threat, right? Shouldn’t there be more than one locked door, some turrets, plus a password on the computers (the barracks is a good example of tighter security)? Maybe you could have ID cards with different clearance levels that would get you access to different kinds of gear, with each clearance level being more difficult to hack than the last. Or the ID cards are only good at certain labs or bunkers within a certain area.

Or the outposts and bunkers, shouldn’t there be minefields and other active denial systems? Like automated microwave guns (Basically an active denial weapon) to scare away the hippies? The bunkers also seem more like operational safe-houses for potential guerrilla warfare than proper armories. Maybe their entrance would instead be well disguised and finding them would require a high perception or a GPS from a dead soldier?

Or let’s talk about guns. It’s noted in the lore that the US encourages gun ownership, but that it’s fairly well regulated. Well maybe you could have it so that most fire arms require a biometric ID that’s registered at the store. The ID would be registered via a computer linked up to a national database but all of those would be down due to the end of the world. Maybe small handguns and hunting guns would be exempt, but in order to get some of the more modern guns you’d need a way of registering the gun to your ID. You could, through electronics + computers, build your own computer and software to crack it at the risk of triggering the ID’s fail-safe and turning the gun’s internals into a melted chunk; or you could use mechanics to simply rip the safety out at the risk of making the gun unusable. Maybe some soldier corpses would have an intact self-contained key to the biometric ID.

Additionally, shouldn’t military grade or non-commercial CBMs also require some sort of authorization or code to activate? Maybe some of the more invasive CBMs could be changed from a pickup at the bottom of the lab to a whole sequence. Like, instead of getting the CBM for Time Dilation, you find a research note on the pulped corpse of a scientist hinting at its potential and the lab that was making it. You hunt down the lab, fight your way down, and find a series of well equipped surgical chambers, each equipped with a different purpose with one potentially being the one that installs the bionic module (I guess it wouldn’t be so compact in that case). In order to access it you’d have to have either the ID card or a high enough computer skill, make sure the facility is powered or jerry-rig an alternative via electronics, and be able to input the proper procedures either via an instruction manual obtained in some prior situation or with a high enough medical skill so that the machine doesn’t end up tearing you to pieces. After that, you can finally have your 1000 move point granting power. And even once you’ve gotten, there’s still the risk of getting hit by six shockers and having the BM overload.

There’s also the possibility of a bunker, outpost, lab or what not to be completely trashed by the time you get there. Their front doors and security locks would be blown open. There’d be blast marks where the turrets should be, ect. Or you come up to a bunch of dead soldiers where one of them is wearing a suit of damaged power armor and a wrecked UPS and all of their guns are busted and there’s a Hulk nearby. I know the NPCs will be looting as they go along, but I’m thinking along the lines of black ops cleaners, foreign agents, guilt ridden scientists, escaped test subjects putting the torch to these places. Or they came for the loot themselves and you’ll have to pry it from their cold, dead, fingers/claws/talons/tendrils/stingers. That brings me to my next suggestion.

Maybe you could have enemies that run away, disappear, and then stalk you to the ends of the Earth. Or they spawn after you finish looting an area. Like a vengeful spirit coming after your artifact, or an agent planning to extract a top-secret CBM, or a very persistent self-repairing tank bot. If you manage to kill them, they’re gone, but if not they’ll keep stalking and reappearing when you’re vulnerable. Or if they barely escape with their lives they’ll try to loot other places you’ve passed over or haven’t found and they come back stronger.

Speaking of stronger enemies, maybe we could have more ranged foes? The spitter and shockers are nice, but what about spine-shooting enemies? Or spec-ops zombies that had time-dilation. bionic claws/monomolecular blades, fusion blasters and CQB CBMs where they have a chance to gain 1000 move points once at the beginning of combat or every ten minutes or so? [/spoiler]

Basically, the way I see it, since NPCs aren’t really a functional feature, we’re missing a major foundation for building the balance of the game. If you have some competition for looting and or someone hunting you once have the higher tier stuff (because you have higher tier stuff that the NPC wants), then it’s less a power trip and more of an arms race. Lowering the condition at which you find most gear, or requiring more effort to find higher tier gear can help delay an unstable equilibrium. More powerful enemies, or more demanding environmental effects (such as blizzards, heavy storms, dimensional anomalies) could also be used to suck up loot piles and make high tier gear seem like an equalizer instead of gravy.

Hopefully that wasn’t too much of a ramble.

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:32, topic:5691”]1. heavier penalties for “non-tasty” food, plays well with a system for getting tired of eating the same things all the tieme.
2.looting happening in the background.
3. higher benefits for fresh and cooked foods (both nutrition and morale wise)
that’s off the top of my head. please respect the setting when you propose balance changes.[/quote]

I agree that there are probably more subtle ways of doing it, however with the way the systems work now there would be some problems. Mainly that I’m not sure that the current nutrition/morale system would allow for it to have the desired effect.

For instance, morale penalties are extremely easy to overcome (the effects aren’t drastic, and it’s easy to use an mp3/magazine/drugs/candy and get back any losses) and nutrition penalties can be overcome by simply eating more (especially as so much exists, and that’d become unrealistic in another way) - if there was a ‘healthy eating system’ which meant that you got sicker if you just ate junk food, that’d be fine, but currently it’s not quite so nuanced and that might become a pain if it was; forcing the player to eat healthily in a survival situation would seem a little bit drastic as well, as people can survive on relatively bad foods for years.

Looting happening in the background is something I’m very keen on, but I know others are strongly opposed. To be honest, I can’t imagine a good way of doing it without causing people to either rush to reveal stuff/hoard stuff (if it was based on new tiles that were revealed) or to just pick something from everywhere, which would mean the players stash would get taken from, which would be even more annoying. If there are better ways of doing this then I think it’d be the solution to all the over-abundance problems we have at the moment, but I can’t see a suitable one.

DotDotDot: All extremely well thought out solutions to making the game less of a loot pinata. I think you’re very right with the need to match minimum consumption to the generous supply. I think generally more destroyed/broken stuff would offset this a lot, as at the moment we have a rather clean apocalypse.

While we’re talking about kleptomaniac gnomes and loot fairies, i think Cata first needs some way of tracking ownership of items.
Getting that out of the way first will mean friendly NPCs won’t steal your stash anymore, and we can let loose the gnomes on anything not marked with ownership.

We could also take the second option of simply spawning less stuff the farther from the PC’s spawn point. That way we can bypass all of the nay-sayers who oppose the klepto fairies, while still progressively ramping up Cata’s difficulty over time.

OOh… This…

And also the ability to give NPCs clothing and weaponry, and ensuring they would use them.

Loot pinatas would be reduced by changing how spawn lists work.

[quote=“Adrian, post:35, topic:5691”]While we’re talking about kleptomaniac gnomes and loot fairies, i think Cata first needs some way of tracking ownership of items.
Getting that out of the way first will mean friendly NPCs won’t steal your stash anymore, and we can let loose the gnomes on anything not marked with ownership.

We could also take the second option of simply spawning less stuff the farther from the PC’s spawn point. That way we can bypass all of the nay-sayers who oppose the klepto fairies, while still progressively ramping up Cata’s difficulty over time.[/quote]

Agreed, but I imagine that’d create a mad rush to place ownership on everything. For instance, if the gnomes started gradually stealing stuff after the first two weeks, you’d want to explore as quickly as possible to place ownership/grab useful stuff.

Your idea for just spawning less stuff further from the PC’s spawn point is a good way to tackle this, although it’d discourage exploration which we kinda want to encourage by this.

That’s why I suggested shifting it most food sources towards perishable food - no one would find it unfair if their food perished (as it just does) and we don’t need to actively go around and delete stuff. This wouldn’t mean destroying all the canned food in the game, it’d just be instead of a 50/50 ish split, it’d be more like a 90/10 split.

Or you could have ownership of areas being the the primary way means of claiming something. Kind of like rooms in Dwarf Fortress. You’d also need paper or a PDA or something like an eidetic memory trait to take stock of your items and you’d need line of sight to your items to update the list, and it’d tell you what changed. Then you’d be able to set permissions to accessing store rooms and the like, but it’d only affect your allies. Also, the square you’re standing on and the 8 surrounding squares would count as your “territory” so when you drop something your allies won’t immediately rush over to take it. A “possessive” trait could increase the radius by a square or two. And let’s say a looter does sneak into your refurbished LMOE, and takes something. Well, if you catch them red handed you can either convince/intimidate them (if they don’t try to kill you first), force them to give it back through unarmed melee, or just kill the hapless NPC. If they take it and run off, then when you update your stocks you’d have a “suspicion” flag or token that’d lessen the morale impact of killing an NPC for a little while, with an even reduced penalty for each item you find on the NPC that matches what went missing in your storage (whether or not it was actually yours). And maybe you could have something like mods for clothes (badges, patches, name tags) that’d help you identify some of your more important items (army clothes, fitted chest rigs, power armor…)

That’d be a great way to handle it eventually, but it’s way, way too complicated for the game at the moment and I doubt we’ll get to that stage for a good few years sadly. Until then, I imagine that it’d just cause people to rush to put a possession flag (if you have to pick it up, interact with it, move it or whatever gives it that flag) on everything they can to make sure they don’t lose it.

With sufficient controls it could work though:

  • Items not interacted with or within your radius (quite a few overmap tiles) for a week (or whatever the base rate is) or longer become un-possessed.
  • High danger areas are created (middle of cities) which offset any looting - the higher the danger the lower the chance of looting.
  • Looting is weighted heavily (or almost exclusively) to food, drinks, ammo and other basic supplies.
  • Looting only starts after a certain amount of time, and this can be optioned/turned off.

With those in place it’d work. I really, really think we shouldn’t just wait until full NPC looting is in place before we look at balance issues like this, as it’s going to take literally years to get to that stage - especially working well. Lets just move forward with what we can do, and attract more coders/helpers by the better balance.