Do it makes me less of a man by playing without skill rust?

[Bidyhackier]

the title explain everything.

[Noctifer]

It is disable by default since it is too punishing or not enough to justify its use depending on the options you use and no one seems to want to take the time to fix it.

[Bidyhackier]

in my version it were not,i downloaded the newest one and saw it were disabled,thank you.

[Tawarochir]

Yeah, I wouldn’t worry about it. Skill rust is currently so unpolished that it’s impossible to craft some things because your skill will degrade too fast for you to finish crafting.

Quite frankly, it just adds tedium by forcing you to reread books every now and then.

[deoxy]

The current skill rust system is INSANE. What are we, that guy who forgets everyone every 5 minutes?!?

[Coolthulhu]

no one seems to want to take the time to fix it.

It’s more than that: no one even has a good idea on how to fix it.

[Valpo]

I am using it. But with intcap.

Else you get problems with crafting skills because like mentioned befor you loose lvls while crafting. The cap prevents that.
Also it feel more realistic that way. Its like you can forget things you where in the process of learning relatively fast but things you have learned which i associate with al lvl up in a skill won t just be forgotten overnight.

[Sharklaser]

[quote=“Noctifer, post:2, topic:12478”]no one seems to want to take the time to fix it.

It’s more than that: no one even has a good idea on how to fix it.[/quote]

I don’t know if this is good idea, but to split the skill rust in two part. One part being “on the subject” type of rust, it happens fast - but it also recovers fast. So basically you reach some skill level and spend time away from using that skill… you get “dezoned” and start losing effecive levels. Train a little and you recover the levels fast to your maximum skill level, 5-10 times faster than training it normally. Also recovering from this temporary loss could be offset by lower requirement training, so you kind of “warm up” your skill for high skill usage.

The “permanent rust” takes a long to happen, it would mean forgetting totally, and it would happen at rate of one tenth what the “on the zone” skill loss happens. This is stuff you need to actually re-learn by hard effort. This would mean that you’d actually lose few levels of high skill in span of year or so left totally untrained.

[StopSignal]

[quote=“Noctifer, post:2, topic:12478”]no one seems to want to take the time to fix it.

It’s more than that: no one even has a good idea on how to fix it.[/quote]

Can’t fix what is not broken in my opinion. Skill rust is not needed, in my opinion.
But there is the option to not have it so I’m happy.

[survivornaginata]

i never had problem with it.gives incetive to find memory banks.

[deoxy]

[quote=“Noctifer, post:2, topic:12478”]no one seems to want to take the time to fix it.

It’s more than that: no one even has a good idea on how to fix it.[/quote]

I’ve given quick and easy solutions to it multiple times, quite similar to Sharklaser mentioned (but without the second part). It’s not a hard concept, it wouldn’t be hard to fix - lack of interest (and most people just playing with it off) is the real issue.

Quicker and easier solution: multiply all the times the current system takes to affect your skills by at least 10 (probably more like 20). It wouldn’t really FIX it, but then I wouldn’t feel like a brain trauma patient when I play with it on.

[Coolthulhu]

I’ve given quick and easy solutions to it multiple times, quite similar to Sharklaser mentioned (but without the second part). It’s not a hard concept, it wouldn’t be hard to fix - lack of interest (and most people just playing with it off) is the real issue.

I read your ideas, but I don’t recall them addressing the biggest issue about skill rust. The part where it can be cheaply (in in-game resource cost) delayed for a longer while, but that cheap stopping also takes too much player time.
This part is absolutely vital. Any “fix” that doesn’t address it is inadequate. Things like splitting rust into long/short, practice vs. theory etc. are just “changing things”, but fail to address the central and most important issue with skill rust that makes it inherently bad.
Unfortunately, regular practice also happens to be the way skills are gained/kept in real life.

The only way I can see it fixed at the moment would be to change it into some sort of “upkeep”. Say, if you want to wake up without losing 10% of your fabrication 8 skill, you have to toggle a “retrain fabrication”, then press “do chores” keybind, which would waste some set amount of resources to stop the rust for a while.
Basically, the explicit training/practice system thing suggested for leveling, except with an additional function to do all the about-to-rust upkeep with one keypress.

[Noctifer]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:12, topic:12478”]…The only way I can see it fixed at the moment would be to change it into some sort of “upkeep”. Say, if you want to wake up without losing 10% of your fabrication 8 skill, you have to toggle a “retrain fabrication”, then press “do chores” keybind, which would waste some set amount of resources to stop the rust for a while.
Basically, the explicit training/practice system thing suggested for leveling, except with an additional function to do all the about-to-rust upkeep with one keypress.[/quote]
This could also translate to skill practice. Like having a “tailor’s practice cloth” were you just keep practicing your tailoring in it using rags and threads for the needle and the cloth just keeps getting bigger and bigger. This could apply to other skills like having a “Electrician’s circuit board” where you just use electronic scrap, copper wire, etc and just keep adding to it to practice the skill/prevent rust.

[deoxy]

[quote=“deoxy, post:11, topic:12478”]I’ve given quick and easy solutions to it multiple times, quite similar to Sharklaser mentioned (but without the second part). It’s not a hard concept, it wouldn’t be hard to fix - lack of interest (and most people just playing with it off) is the real issue.

I read your ideas, but I don’t recall them addressing the biggest issue about skill rust. The part where it can be cheaply (in in-game resource cost) delayed for a longer while, but that cheap stopping also takes too much player time.
This part is absolutely vital. Any “fix” that doesn’t address it is inadequate. Things like splitting rust into long/short, practice vs. theory etc. are just “changing things”, but fail to address the central and most important issue with skill rust that makes it inherently bad.
Unfortunately, regular practice also happens to be the way skills are gained/kept in real life.

The only way I can see it fixed at the moment would be to change it into some sort of “upkeep”. Say, if you want to wake up without losing 10% of your fabrication 8 skill, you have to toggle a “retrain fabrication”, then press “do chores” keybind, which would waste some set amount of resources to stop the rust for a while.
Basically, the explicit training/practice system thing suggested for leveling, except with an additional function to do all the about-to-rust upkeep with one keypress.[/quote]

No, none of that would make the current system any better because the current system is INSANE.

I can spend 36+ hours in constant combat until I’m exhausted and passing out, and by the time I sleep for 8 hours (not even enough to catch up), I’m already experiencing skill rust - permanent loss of the skills I was using likely crazy literally yesterday.

THAT is the problem. Solve that problem, and then the problem you’re mentioning might be big enough to notice… or not, actually.

The problem is that skill rust, in the real world, happens in significant amounts only in large periods of time. To keep from forgetting something, doing it 3-4 times a YEAR would be fine. If that’s all it took, your complaint pretty much goes away.

Even discussing the stuff Noctifier mentions (items specifically for practicing) shows where the real problem is. The tedium you’re complaining about is only tedious because you have to do it ALL THE BLOODY TIME. You can actually rust a skill down before you finish the job you’re trying to do with it at higher levels.

That is mental-patient/brain-damage bad, ok? Fix that, and your complaint is reduced to levels most would consider trivial.

[StopSignal]

I think the skill rust would be perfect instead of 10% loss, it should be something like 1 or 2% loss. Small enough to not be stupid but to bother realistically with time.

[Coolthulhu]

The tedium you’re complaining about is only tedious because you have to do it ALL THE BLOODY TIME.

No, it’s tedious because it’s trivial to do and just takes many keypresses. It actually being punishing instead of just an annoying background would be a good thing, because it would give it a reason to exists.
If we slowed down the rust to start after a week, that would take away all the gameplay implications, leaving it a pure tedium with no redeeming features. It would be worse than the current ultrafast rust.

[Valpo]

In my opinion its sufficient if it simulates rl rust in a believable way. If it adds to gameplay good. If not its still of value to me .

[deoxy]

[quote=“deoxy, post:14, topic:12478”]The tedium you’re complaining about is only tedious because you have to do it ALL THE BLOODY TIME.

No, it’s tedious because it’s trivial to do and just takes many keypresses. It actually being punishing instead of just an annoying background would be a good thing, because it would give it a reason to exists.
If we slowed down the rust to start after a week, that would take away all the gameplay implications, leaving it a pure tedium with no redeeming features. It would be worse than the current ultrafast rust.[/quote]

It is CURRENTLY “a pure tedium with no redeeming features”. If you notice, every time this comes up, the majority of people say they don’t play with it.

Rust is something that should happen over a long period of time - “Oh yeah, let’s see if I can remember how to do that thing I used to be good at some years ago.” Months at least, before there’s anything significant - making it once or twice a season (so it scales easily) would be ok.

Happening in less than a day is just silliness, even with the implicit time-scaling.

Two easy fixes, and probably either one would be enough to make it non-stupid. 1) rust isn’t permanent, it’s simply a penalty that goes away quickly with just a little use, or 2) make the time-scale something longer than “Hi, I’m Dory” short.

[Coolthulhu]

Two easy fixes, and probably either one would be enough to make it non-stupid.

Those aren’t fixes. Those are “changes”.
You keep proposing those changes, but the problem here is that instead of thinking about what would actual consequences of those changes be, you only address some local problems.

Skills rust too fast -> slow it down
Skill rust is tedious to keep it up -> make it not matter
Problems addressed, but the end result is basically removing any consequences of skill rust altogether and ending up with what “Off” setting already does.

Skill rust is inherently stupid for as long as it can be stopped without spending resources (cheap stuff like rags doesn’t count). There is no way to fix skill rust if you can stop it by spending an in-game hour sewing socks, swimming in a pool, punching very weak zeds etc. every week to prevent it from actually causing problems.
For as long as skill rust takes player time instead of character time, it is inherently and irredeemably bad and the only sane option is “Off”.

[SpadeDraco]

Yeah. Skill rust definitely falls into the “mechanic so bad that there is literally no way that constructive criticism can salvage it” category for me. It shares this (dubious) distinction with Filthy Clothes, Faulty Parts, and Meter Management Hell (I mean vitamin nutrition).