Mutation category expansion

I could still see nearby ones at least triggering hostility if you started burning down the grove though. And don’t forget that just because fungus are friendly (which isn’t really too big of a difference, since most of them are at most indifferent to your presence as is) doesn’t mean that you are immune to the fungal spores disease. :P[/quote]
Totally, agressive actions against other triffids would flip other triffids over to hostile, but it wouldn’t brand you as a “triffid hater” forever, because they have no way to tell each other about your atrocities.

Good point about fungus, that would be less mutation and more some hypothetical fungal symbiosis.

we need to cap the number of mutations and have some adverse affects for having too many even if they are good. lots should have a chance to kill you. its too esay to get uber characters with mutations and CBMs.

Yeah, joining the fungus would probably require being explicitly non-mutatey.

In the lore I’m trying to develop, there are certainly very smart and very organized triffids. But it varies a lot depending on the individual triffid, and they would still be very very alien. And the whole triffid setup is more about the lower level triffids doing what they are told rather than thinking for themselves. Nothing you do should probably convince a Triffid Queen or Triffid Heart to follow you, especially if it’s the result of Netherum mutations.

However, killing the heart and then proceeding to take over the triffid colony without it actively working against you? THAT could be pretty damn awesome.

And feel a lot more like an accomplishment than simply “I chugged mutagen now all these triffids are my slaves”.


I want to see us sort of move in the direction of making the triffids work kind of like a Dungeon Keeper dungeon. You have the Triffid Heart/Dungeon Heart keeping all the creatures under control and working together towards some common goal, and it’s brutally intelligent, at least in some ways, but probably not much for conversation. Everything else in it’s domain is essentially part of a “minion ecosystem” - it’s a carefully cultivated garden, essentially. The various minions have various levels of intelligence and independence, but they are all under the control of the heart, more or less.

Perhaps, joining of some of the monster factions (ant, spider, wasp, bee, etc.) could be done by attaining the related pheromone mutations?

It’s good to provoke discussion. :slight_smile:

We kicked around a few ideas for what to do with the existing categories over in the Uncut the other day. Factions didn’t come up as such, but the idea of Triffid pherpmones as an item (cf. zed pheromones) did.

So far as I knew they woudn’t be useful for more than one Heart.

I’ve been thinking about “capstone” or oterwise end-category mutations one could obtain once one got strongly enough into one particular category. For plants, was thinking more a radical alteration to one’s sleep and nutrition systems.

But being able to contest control of a triffid grove (or, with Insect, a hive) could be useful too. Trouble would be directing your minions. As it stands there’s not much code for faction or NPC direction. Spiders probably wouldn’t have a faction; leastwise I haven’t seen a Spider Hive to date. :wink:

Becoming an alpha Beast might be feasible but I’d suggest that one’s pack could communicate about you. Tougher to abuse that IMO.

As for the top-levels: Alpha, yeah, you are that much better, so you can succeed that much more often and generally look good.

Elf-a, well, I guess your dreamy green eyes* and glorious good looks might have an effect on the local population.

*Yes, Fey Eyes confer a small but significant bonus to NPC interactions. Just don’t tell 'em that the color-shifting is a Slime effect. (Totally is.)

[quote=“KA101, post:25, topic:3755”]It’s good to provoke discussion. :slight_smile:

We kicked around a few ideas for what to do with the existing categories over in the Uncut the other day. Factions didn’t come up as such, but the idea of Triffid pherpmones as an item (cf. zed pheromones) did.

So far as I knew they woudn’t be useful for more than one Heart.

I’ve been thinking about “capstone” or oterwise end-category mutations one could obtain once one got strongly enough into one particular category. For plants, was thinking more a radical alteration to one’s sleep and nutrition systems.

But being able to contest control of a triffid grove (or, with Insect, a hive) could be useful too. Trouble would be directing your minions. As it stands there’s not much code for faction or NPC direction. Spiders probably wouldn’t have a faction; leastwise I haven’t seen a Spider Hive to date. :wink:

Becoming an alpha Beast might be feasible but I’d suggest that one’s pack could communicate about you. Tougher to abuse that IMO.

As for the top-levels: Alpha, yeah, you are that much better, so you can succeed that much more often and generally look good.

Elf-a, well, I guess your dreamy green eyes* and glorious good looks might have an effect on the local population.

*Yes, Fey Eyes confer a small but significant bonus to NPC interactions. Just don’t tell 'em that the color-shifting is a Slime effect. (Totally is.)[/quote]

Ah yes, just what I need, an excuse to have a fuckton of lizards in my wake… …there aren’t lizards native to New England are there…

Not lizards but I believe they have salamanders, which are kinda like amphibious lizards. I live in PA and we have em in the mountains which are temperately similar to new england.

Admittedly, I’m not sure how the factions would be balanced, if that’s even possible. There certainly doesn’t seem to be much benefit in killing a rat king and becoming a rat leader over…just about anything else, really. Unless monster evolution is worked out and you can evolve your rat squad into colossal rathulks, or something.

Although it would be neat if cephalopod characters got missions to flood cities and create an underwater utopia.

I like this talk about gaining faction clout based on how heavily mutated you are.

Also, as to Yootoo’s suggestion of a mutation cap, not particularly my cup of mutagenic tea–but I think I have the makings of a compromise in mind.

Currently, with some luck, alot of mutagen and liberal use of purifier/category mutagen you can really make robust genetics pay off. If you get a particularly bad roll with mutagen you can always purify your way back to square one and start over after all.

What I’d suggest is a MUTATION BRINK where in you’ve fallen too far into a particular flavor of mutie and can’t Dr. Jekyll your way out. This begs to be explained further so I’ll do just that.

Let’s for example say a survivor of the completely plausible name Gutsmanguy sits his merry self down with a steel jerrycan of vanilla mutagen. After a ripping good swig he finds himself decidedly more teuthidian than he would care for. This would normally be the point in our little tale at which our hero nurses purifier and category mutagen until he’s satisfied with the outcome. I suggest an alternative.

The mutation brink as I propose is a little line drawn in the figurative sand that once you pass you can no longer easily rid yourself of mutations in that particular category and become resistant ((But not immune)) to gaining mutations from the others. Most importantly however–all mutations push you towards the brink, once passed you fall into your strongest mutant category.

It’s not all bad though, because I suggest the following ideas along with this.

1- Passing the brink is what puts you in the good or bad graces of certain NPC or monster factions
and
2- New mutations become available for passing the brink in a specific category. Some of which reduce the penalties for ((and have as a prerequisite)) otherwise undesirable mutations while others are worth pigeon holing yourself as “That lizard mutant guy.”

An example of a bad trait benefiting from this : Cold-Blooded can evolve into a trait that, while still giving you the full -1 percent speed penalty for every degree below 60 likewise gives you a +1 percent speed bonus for every point above sixty.

An example of a beyond the brink mutation : Ant-like strength - Greatly increases the maximum weight you can shoulder but has no effect on maximum volume the player can carry. Would allow for pushing wreckage off the road and sprinting off with burdens that would crush a lesser mutant under their weight.

As another off-hand suggestion I’d throw in Targeted Purifier for ridding yourself of specific mutations–but give it a chance of failure ((with consequences)) and have its success rate decline based on how heavily mutated you already are.

…I like the sound of it…

[quote=“Logrin, post:29, topic:3755”]I like this talk about gaining faction clout based on how heavily mutated you are.

Also, as to Yootoo’s suggestion of a mutation cap, not particularly my cup of mutagenic tea–but I think I have the makings of a compromise in mind.

Currently, with some luck, alot of mutagen and liberal use of purifier/category mutagen you can really make robust genetics pay off. If you get a particularly bad roll with mutagen you can always purify your way back to square one and start over after all.

What I’d suggest is a MUTATION BRINK where in you’ve fallen too far into a particular flavor of mutie and can’t Dr. Jekyll your way out. This begs to be explained further so I’ll do just that.

Let’s for example say a survivor of the completely plausible name Gutsmanguy sits his merry self down with a steel jerrycan of vanilla mutagen. After a ripping good swig he finds himself decidedly more teuthidian than he would care for. This would normally be the point in our little tale at which our hero nurses purifier and category mutagen until he’s satisfied with the outcome. I suggest an alternative.

The mutation brink as I propose is a little line drawn in the figurative sand that once you pass you can no longer easily rid yourself of mutations in that particular category and become resistant ((But not immune)) to gaining mutations from the others. Most importantly however–all mutations push you towards the brink, once passed you fall into your strongest mutant category.

It’s not all bad though, because I suggest the following ideas along with this.

1- Passing the brink is what puts you in the good or bad graces of certain NPC or monster factions
and
2- New mutations become available for passing the brink in a specific category. Some of which reduce the penalties for ((and have as a prerequisite)) otherwise undesirable mutations while others are worth pigeon holing yourself as “That lizard mutant guy.”

An example of a bad trait benefiting from this : Cold-Blooded can evolve into a trait that, while still giving you the full -1 percent speed penalty for every degree below 60 likewise gives you a +1 percent speed bonus for every point above sixty.

An example of a beyond the brink mutation : Ant-like strength - Greatly increases the maximum weight you can shoulder but has no effect on maximum volume the player can carry. Would allow for pushing wreckage off the road and sprinting off with burdens that would crush a lesser mutant under their weight.

As another off-hand suggestion I’d throw in Targeted Purifier for ridding yourself of specific mutations–but give it a chance of failure ((with consequences)) and have its success rate decline based on how heavily mutated you already are.[/quote]

Poster after my own heart. Not (yet) clear on how to handle the mutation-constraining effects, but I like the idea of passing a certain threshold after which things go seriously post-human.

(I’d make it based on progress in a category, not just total number/mutations. Pay attention to those dreams!)

Purifiers could theoretically be targeted at a particular category, but that’s Cooking 10 at best, if the Lab folks ever worked it out. Lore says they focused primarily on teleportation.

Re the Rat category: I’ve got plans for that and Troglodyte. But they need a little help from the building-makers and ideally the z-levels. Would you become Queen of the Rats if you could have your minions fetch you the parts to make your own powered subway car? (That’s hypothetical…for now.) Would you go perma-underground if you didn’t need a J-Hammer and gasoline to tunnel? Things like that.

I like the sound of the ‘brink’ idea, and the Rat Emperor ideas. How is the threshold idea determined: by having mutated X times, or by having X category mutations? Say our hero sits down with a jerrycan of mutagen in one hand and a jerrycan of purifier in the other. He takes a swig of mutagen, then a swig of purifier. Would he pass the brink after a certain amount of doing this, or would he have to continue drinking mutagen until he’s fairly deep into one particular category?

And I’d go perma-underground in a heartbeat if I had night vision. In my last game with insect pheromone I set up a small base in an anthill food storage chamber. Free meat and no wild animals attacking.

(I'd make it based on progress in a category, not just total number/mutations. Pay attention to those dreams!)

I never even thought to tying this in with dreams, but you definitely hit the nail on the head with that suggestion.

Would he pass the brink after a certain amount of doing this, or would he have to continue drinking mutagen until he's fairly deep into one particular category?

The brink should certainly only count currently held mutations towards its weight, otherwise you could get ‘stuck’ as say a bird mutant with no bird mutations.

[quote=“Logrin, post:33, topic:3755”]

(I’d make it based on progress in a category, not just total number/mutations. Pay attention to those dreams!)

I never even thought to tying this in with dreams, but you definitely hit the nail on the head with that suggestion.

Would he pass the brink after a certain amount of doing this, or would he have to continue drinking mutagen until he's fairly deep into one particular category?

The brink should certainly only count currently held mutations towards its weight, otherwise you could get ‘stuck’ as say a bird mutant with no bird mutations.[/quote]

This is basically how current category-strength works. The more mutations you have in a given category, the “stronger” it is. Your Weird Dreams™ are based off your strongest category and its strength; about 8 mutations suffices for third-stage (the particularly specific dreams), which is currently the strongest level.

(This is also a reason why I’m breaking widely shared mutations up: if 4+ categories all have the same mutation, it starts becoming increasingly powerful in terms of category-strength. Fast Metabolism, if Elf-a & Raptor lands, will appear in no less than 7 categories. Which means that you get a point in each of them. Not sure we want people "luck"ing into top-tier categories that easily.)

I’m thinking that once you hit this point, we start checking for higher-powered category-specific mutations, and that obtaining one of those (perhaps only possible via targeted mutagen) crosses the threshold. Example category-specific mutations I had in mind would be Exothermic (the bonus-points version of Cold Blooded), Chloromorphosis (you eat like a plant…radical alteration to sleep habits :wink: ), etc.

Holy cow I am loving this rework/expansion of the mutation trees. It’s already far less random-shit-roulette and more… organic in how the mutations evolve now. It certainly feels that way - still a bit chaotic wondering what you’re going to wind up with, but there’s some threads of order in all the claws and hair now ;D

The threshold idea makes quite a bit of sense to me, and the means of crossing that point of no-return sounds like it would work quite well. You’d be looking at category strength in a general sense to get up to that point, and then specific mutations to cross it. I like that better than keeping some raw-valued tally alone.

Yaay for category-specific mutations and a threshold of some sort.

OK, since someone mentioned this thread gave good info on how mutations work, I’ll fill in some of the basics.

Lots of stuff in-game can make you mutate. Most of it’s consumable, but there’s a certain radiation-level that can provoke them (if you have that on: radiation-induced mutations are Comic Book Reality, which doesn’t work for some people).

Robust Genetics takes a potentially Bad break and flips it to a Good break. If you plan on using mutagen, it’s worth taking it from the start. But it’s also in two mutation categories, so remember! It’s Never Too Late to Mutate!

Looks like you can Rad-Mutate at 60 rads minimum, but the odds get better as your dose goes up. Try to stay under 150 though as that’s when the nasty damage sets in.

Unstable Genetics (a mutation, available in Slime, Medical, and Chimera) mutates you every once in a while, calibrated to average one mutation every two days or so. Mutagenic artifacts (they degrade your genetic makeup and warn you about the fact) have the same general rate.

Sewage has a 25% chance to mutate you, but induces vomiting, guaranteed. The assorted human parts give a better chance but still the vomiting. Tainted Tornado is a fairly low-skill (Cooking 5: mutagens are 8-10) single-shot mutagen, but seems expensive. I’ve never bothered.

I tend to stick with mutagens. Your generic “glass flask of mutagen” is one dose, and drinking it can call the mutate script up to three times:
1 guaranteed
2 66% chance
3 50% chance

Each time you call the mutation code, it first checks for a 1/3 chance of a guaranteed Bad mutation. Not sure how that’s determined yet; would guess the point values in the JSON as most likely culprit. If you have Robust Genetics, whether from chargen or from Slime/Alpha, that 1/3 chance instead forces a Good mutation.

(In the event that you used a category-mutagen, hit the 1/3 chance, and there are no further bad/good mutations available, you won’t get any mutation.)

At this point, the game checks for category strength and whether it should enforce them (upgrade something from your strongest category; downgrade/delete something outside your strongest category). It’ll do this about half the time

And if it decides not to do that, then it looks for valid mutations (bad/good, category), finds one that fits, and mutates you. In the event that there’s none available, nothing happens–but with non-targeted mutagen, that’s practically impossible. :wink:

Category-mutagens call the code once, and restrict the selection to the relevant category.

And I’m gonna stop there, for now. :wink:

That explanation of mutation code helped make a lot of things ingame make sense. Thank you :smiley:

And of course I only just remembered now, the entire reason I gave my survivor self the Antlers mutation was to have something reminiscent of treebranches. There isn’t a Branches mutation in-game, and I wonder if there might be, stat-wise, some unoccupied function that branches could then provide. Something for thought, perhaps.

[quote=“Pthalocy, post:38, topic:3755”]That explanation of mutation code helped make a lot of things ingame make sense. Thank you :smiley:

And of course I only just remembered now, the entire reason I gave my survivor self the Antlers mutation was to have something reminiscent of treebranches. There isn’t a Branches mutation in-game, and I wonder if there might be, stat-wise, some unoccupied function that branches could then provide. Something for thought, perhaps.[/quote]

We should add branches… and a “turns into” fruiting flowers… XD

Haha, stupid little flowers. Possible, so long as the functions they include actually cause some variation in gameplay style that’s interesting. X)