Throwing debate

I would point back to my comment – just because you hit something with a rock doesn’t mean you kill it, especially if that thing is the size of a dog, child, or adult. I know it’s morbid, but I wrote a paper on people being stoned and saw videos of it. You can think what you want, but a human can take a lot of abuse, and a zombie is even more resilient when it comes to blunt impact on most of their person.

Also, as we’ve discussed, throwing a uniform item specifically designed to throwing (a baseball) is not the same as throwing a rock you just grabbed up off the ground or a less aerodynamic object like a stick. But, let’s track that line of thought. People get hit in the face with baseballs. It happens. They walk away with an orbital fracture or broken jaw (Rhys Hoskins). Disoriented, stunned, and injured, sure, but not dead. You hit them 2 or 3 times with a baseball going around 95mph, sure, you’ll kill them, but that’s beyond the scope of the average human. I acknowledge that most of our characters, though, are above average.

Also, a 10 year old kid throwing 90 mph is pretty astonishing and I honestly don’t even believe that. It definitely should not be considered the average.

And again, I point you to the failing in your logic: you cannot apply ultrarealism to an arbitrarily-chosen set of weapons and not the rest.
You either apply the logic you suggest to all weapons, in which case daggers, punching, arrows, guns and the like are useless, or you apply the logic those weapons are already working under to throwing weapons. But not one logic for one set of weapons and another for the others.

I can understand that. Reality isn’t particularly fun – I suppose I got a bit distracted by a discussion of throwing weapons as a concept, rather than ‘throwing weapons as a part of the game’.

you aren’t going to walk off an orbital fracture, that is going to rapidly incapacitate you which is, “as good as dead”.
As @Aabbcc points out, we don’t demand that other attack types be instantly lethal in order to treat them as lethal. Many but not all guns are, arrows and javelins are, some melee weapons are, explosives are, but that leaves out a lot of attack types that aren’t irl instantly lethal, but are eventually lethal

The ability to throw a dagger or a grenade at a moment’s notice is the more interesting aspect of throwing, though as implemented it is unrealistic. Perhaps compensate that by making most of throwing inferior to its competitors. Think of it this way: just use a bow as a low tech dedicated range option if its needed. If something gets close throw an ax without dropping the bow and without the need to aim as a pseudo melee attack. It won’t be as op if something else readily accessible is just better, and can still be useful if it complements what else the character does best. The real number crunching can start with grenades, which might be better documented and needed due to their single use nature. If someone can get hydraulic muscles, railgun, the other minor support items, and the strength to carry an engine in their pocket then go to fantasy levels of over powered. Maybe then turn throwing into a heavy resource spender for hulk levels of destruction.

102 posts were split to a new topic: Throwing martial arts

This is reminding me again that most of the Trowing is OP actually comes from the time before the modification to gun ranges, when the formula was such that throwing had about the same range as everything else. I, for one, haven’t used throwing for more than grenades since way back then.
To recap the old complains:

  • throwing had the same range as other ranged weapons, this has been fixed.
  • throwing skill rose too fast, becoming a top tier option simply through sheer high skill and easily-available ammo.

I don’t know if the second one was ever patched.

Have any of you seriously used throwing since then?

The other issue, as set out by Kevin, was that some early throwing weapons were too powerful. Apparently you could sit there with a pile of rocks and take on a horde of zombies successfully. If that’s true, then that probably deserves some attention due to it being an easy earlygame “I win” button (Not like there isn’t a bunch of those around…) The only way to get around that is to nerf the throwing weapons themselves or, probably more usefully, nerf low skill throwing, probably in terms of accuracy.

But was that feat achieved at low skill or high skill?
Because I remember a complain being that one could train throwing to a high level on a couple days fighting stragglers and wildlife while collecting ammo, and then you were strong enough to take on hordes.

Of course you can take on hordes at max skill level tho, I don’t think it’s desirable to discourage that, perhaps only nerfing it a little bit.

^ this sounds reeasonable enough, this could apply to knives being thrown well enough to hit blade first instead of hilt first, it shouldn’t be good_throw = bonus damage, but good_throw = use thrown_effects so throwing that blade into a zombie could cause call for the effects of that thrown weapon, which would impart their special effect on the target, assuming that the target is not immune to the wepaons special_effect.

This way, accidently well thrown weapons, and skilled throwers alike would have high versitility, but usually realitively low damage, except where apropriate, utility weapons

honestly more special effects for weapons seems like something that should be utilized more in general, espeically in crit_hit type cituations. It allows weapons to be pretty meh, unless your lucky, or skilled. As keeps getting brought up, things like a stone to the gut, is going to do little to a zombie, who is largely going to ignore all but the most grievious wounds, unless they are physically dibilitating. Hit one in the head, large chance of special_effects like stuned, or off_balence, or maybe mild_stun.

Heh ranger's aprentice fanboy moment

heh, the erlier debate got me thinking of that Rangers aprentice section where Princess cassandra learns to use the sling. Then goes to meetings and parley’s with a “heavy looking neclace” that reassembles into a sling. Sling throwing is seen as the easier alternative to get really good at the bow. Granted, it was used as a primitive weapon for that very reason.

I think its easy to forget that this is largely because we are used to thinking of more modern compound bows and the like that fire more straight forward a maner rather than the fluctuating, flexing arrows that would be used when slings were most prevelent.

old arrows are hard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Yp9SjCU5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zewtuUM_0

Nearby, sure. By the OP’s model, at a range of 60ft for an expert.

It’s more tied up in melee than I expected. Could probably do melee forms for axe and javelin now, but that’s a huge aside.

Never expected to do it like that. I did think the existing code would be more generic. Throwing styles. Patterned after how martial arts are implemented. In design, not literal fact.

Wrong comparisons. They just don’t fit you. Nothing wrong with that.

Versus the living. Besides, sling throws break bone and tear flesh.

Roman sling bullets used against Scottish tribes 2,000 years ago were as deadly as a .44 Magnum
The stones, which hurtled along at up to 100mph (160km/h), could take the top of your head off with nearly as much force as a .44 Magnum.

Therefore, throwing styles\arts, following the design and reusing some code from martial arts.

Martial art, and throwing art. Axe has both.

No idea, but I assume fairly low skill, since it seemed to be a earlygame concern. Reducing the exp rate for throwing seems like a good fix for that though, especially considering how slowly most other combat skills go up.

Centrefire bows can be more accurate, but most modern bows still deal with arrow flex, it’s just a matter of getting arrows of the right flexibility for the poundage of your bow. The reason people are more accurate now is mostly down to sights and material quality.

Sounds good to me.

Martial arts are still martial arts, not proficiency with particular weapons. If you can find a real world martial art that specifically uses axes or javelins, make it for the game. That’d be awesome.

Exactly. Codewise I don’t see how you could limit weapon use to something specific and I don’t think martial arts is the way to go about it. Possibly traits, like the one for marshals? A sling proficiency trait?

It’s not that they don’t fit, it’s just that lategame an A7 rifle with a pile of bionic power and a metabolic interchange CBM kicks the crap out of a pile of throwing axes, or whatever the equivalent throwing weapon would be.

In that case torn flesh isn’t going to make any difference either, and arrows tear flesh better than rocks. Bones might be a problem, but if we limit damage to anything that breaks bones suddenly 99% of weapons are useless.

Those sling bullets aren’t pebbles, and I’m not convinced they were as powerful as a .44. Not from Daily Mail, anyway. I suppose you could have a martial art to boost sling damage, but that seems like a buff for the sake of a buff. It’s not really a martial art so much as proficiency with a weapon.

Throwing arts would be even more random. One for each type of throwing weapon? Of which we have all of 3? 4?

A martial art just for tomahawks seems arbitrary, and I don’t see how you could have multiple throwing styles.

Huh… system ate my post for some reason.

That’s why I am concerned that nobody seems to have tried throwing lately, nor has provided any information, neither anecdotical nor methodogical testing, of whether throwing is OP right now or not. All of it seems to be a vague feeling from many months ago.

I have to agree with this. There are far too few varieties of thrown weapons to justify branching ‘throwing arts’ for each.
Hell, even the most restrictive armed martial art in the game works for both the tiny wakizashi and the huge nodachi, while the second most restrictive works for both two-handed broadswords and for umbrellas.

As much as I agree on the whole throwing thing. Melee skills do need to be fleshed out IMO. Stabbing someone with a knife and a spear are wildly different actions and shouldn’t be in the same skill just because of damage type.

“Has the same range as other weapons” was not the problem. The problem was simply “throwing weapons are too effective”. To the extent that range was a part of the problem, it is unchanged because throwing ranges have not been changed.

Correct, also see this post in the relevant issue.

a simple test of spawn a totally average character (all 8 stats, no skills) with a pile of rocks can hold off a sizeable horde of zombies, and rapidly gain throwing skill levels in the process.

Ah, let me clarify: It’s not that throwing range has been reduced, it’s that gun ranges are now much better. I’m pretty sure that back when that issue cropped up, we couldn’t shoot past 10 or so tiles.

Pretty sure getting hit with a baseball sized heavy object at 90+ mph would be pretty lethal at least 45% of the time. Remember that baseball players wear helmets for this very reason!

Ok, finally had some time to play some, so I decided to test this.
Started a character with no mods, 8 in all stats, no perks. Gave it unlimited carrying capacity, rocks, pebbles, throwing knives, throwing axes, and a sling. Saved, then backed up that save.

Test #1: Rocks
Approached a zombie and started throwing. At skill 0, they really couldn’t hit beyond 3~4 squares, but at that range? You hit relatively often, you throw fast, and your Skill XP goes up hilariously fast. It’s exceedingly easy to kite a zombie with rocks, even if it took 4~6.
A handful zombies more and I was looking at skill level 3, could nail them at 6~8, 3 or so for skeletons and children. Could throw 3~4 times before they moved a tile, you even get to hit runner zombies twice from time to time with throwing before they move, and it generally didn’t take much to kill foes unless they were tough or fat.
Pretty damn strong, can kite a group of half a dozen zombies to death easily, even including a couple specials, but not enough to tackle an actual horde and a brute or a smoker would just wreck you.

Test #2: Sling
Poor start. At lvl 0 it can’t hit the broad side of a barn, and unlike throwing, slings need aiming time. The XP still rose fast, but kitting even a single regular zombie is not guaranteed.
A little more skill and it’s… respectable. Pretty decent range, but damage is shit and firing time is poor.
In combination with regular throwing tho, and it’s hella deadly. Throwing can get your skill up fast and deal with close enemies, while the sling lets you pull distant enemies silently and even kill weaker ones at long ranges.

Test #3: throwing knives
Went like rocks, but much better damage. I wouldn’t tackle a horde with these on this straight 8 character, but hell, they’re too good.

Test #4: Axes
Like knives, but heavier and hit like a truck. Basically, a handful of these plus a sling? You’re golden. You’re waaaay better off than with just about any other weapon you could find early.

Conclusion:
Throwing is not ‘take a horde with zero skill and a pile of rocks’ good, but they’re definitely overpowered.
The biggest factor, I think, is that they have no aiming time while still retaining decent accuracy, so you can bombard foes as if a machinegun even from skill 0. This translates into very fast and very easy leveling of the skill with how easy it is to kite foes.

Suggestions:

  • Give the skill xp code for it a second look
  • Either make throwing slower, or give them some aiming time. It’s fine to throw fast at higher level, it’s not fine to turn zombies into pincushions before they can move at Skill 0.

One of the big advantages to throwing is that you can throw quickly, even if your arms are full. Fighting off a horde with a fencing and a rapier and there’s a spitter approaching? No problem, just chuck some rocks at it. Don’t have to drop your weapon, don’t have to pick it back up again, you can just throw rocks while performing fencing counters against anything that attacks you.

But if you use an actual ranged weapon, you have to drop or sheath the rapier, draw or pick up the ranged weapon, aim, attack, and then change back to your rapier (dropping or holstering the ranged weapon in the process).

It gives throwing a huge benefit over other ranged attacks.

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Yeah, the wikipedia page is enlightening: