Strength dominating stat value

[darktoes]

Sort of. It’s a problem with stat min/maxing in the sense that there’s a clear optimum path, but THAT is caused by the relative uselessness of the stats other than strength. Whether that’s something that can be easily dealt with is another problem entirely, I agree. Some discussion on Discord has yielded ideas mainly based on improving the combat effectiveness of the other stats, like giving perception a bonus to ranged damage or increased critical chance, things like that.

[Erk]

It’s outside the scope of greatbows anyway, but I’d breakdown the minmaxing problem to two things:

1. You shouldn’t get quite so many points back from dropping stats. I think you get two points for each level below six, and that seems excessive.

2. Penalties for low stats should be higher, moreso than bonuses for high stats increasing. The bonuses would also be nice, but the late game is already OP so that should be something approached cautiously. However I’d suggest strongly penalizing speed and accuracy for dexterity below six, strongly increasing darkness penalties for low perception, et cetera.

[Tamior]

It’s outside the scope of greatbows anyway, but I’d breakdown the minmaxing problem to two things:

1. You shouldn’t get quite so many points back from dropping stats. I think you get two points for each level below six, and that seems excessive.

2. Penalties for low stats should be higher, moreso than bonuses for high stats increasing. The bonuses would also be nice, but the late game is already OP so that should be something approached cautiously. However I’d suggest strongly penalizing speed and accuracy for dexterity below six, strongly increasing darkness penalties for low perception, et cetera.

1. No. You get points 1:1 for changes from 4 to 14 stat score.
2. So a low stat should give penalties that a high stat does not give bonuses for? Because high dex does not buff speed. And night vision with 4 per is already at minimum (1 tile of radius). Do you want it to go negative or something?

[darktoes]

One thing to keep in mind with strong stat penalties is that sufficiently high pain causes most of your stats to drop to near 0. That isn’t necessarily a problem with linear stat scaling, but if you exponentially drop-off towards the low end then high pain becomes even more of a death sentence than it was already. Even if you have a character with slightly lower stats, say 6, then even a little pain will cause them huge issues if their base speed suddenly drops 50%.

That said, all stats are currently based around linear increases/decreases and I don’t expect that to change.

[Tamior]

Also, just to state the obvious:
strength is flat out the best stat because it effect things that you absolutely don’t want to fail at: HP, breaking out of grabs, quickly forcing things open, etc. And it’s ALSO the stat that gives the best passive bonuses you can’t compensate for via skill training. Thanks to how pain works, high strength is NEEDED to be able to carry your gear without being overloaded after a few smacks.

[Erk]

Sorry for the lack of specificity, I’m not trying to design a PR here. Dex currently increases speed in a number of things such as aiming, swimming, and attacking. The penalty for these things may need to be higher at low levels.

That said, pain lowering stats is a valid concern and I don’t really want to get into it too much.

It would also be reasonable to move some of strength’s features to other stats. For example, dex already has some effect on HP. Strength’s effect could be lower and dex higher. Dex and Int could both have a hand in breaking out of grabs. Etc.

[Sanehatter]

Dex affects breaking out of grabs too, for the record.
I think a solution is to make the already existent bonuses of the other stats more relevant, so you can’t compensate them so easily with skills.
Having 4 Dex and Per should make you a horrible/bad shot, no matter your skill levels.

[Erk]

I wonder if it would be possible to make dispersion for ranged shots increase rapidly with dropping perception, and make melee attack time much much longer with dropping dexterity. Those alone would suit the major issues.

[Mantar]

Just spitballing, but perhaps dex could affect the number of dodges you get per turn. It’s normally fixed at 1, but what if high dex gave you like 1.2, and a dex of say, 2, gave you 0.5, so you could only dodge once every other round?

[Tamior]

I wonder if it would be possible to make dispersion for ranged shots increase rapidly with dropping perception, and make melee attack time much much longer with dropping dexterity. Those alone would suit the major issues.

This also will make pain much more dangerous to “normal” builds, as pain-induced stat penalties will suddenly make them unable to fight back.

Really, I think the first question should be what exactly are we solving here:

• min/maxing as such (e.g. the fact that a build with one “primary” stat can be more viable than a "balanced’ build)

or

• the fact that strength is much more useful than other stats

[Trigon]

I think option 2 is the main one for me. I think specialist builds should be viable absolutely. That’s a player’s choice, one stat being better than every other stat is more problematic though.

[Tamior]

I think option 2 is the main one for me. I think specialist builds should be viable absolutely. That’s a player’s choice, one stat being better than every other stat is more problematic though.

Well, with that being the case, we need to think what positive effects can exist for higher dexterity and perception.
Effects that can’t be easily replicated via equipment or skills.
So, just to spitball a few:

• dexterity can just give strain up reduction to action point cost of non-movement actions, including attacks (very high dexterity will likely allow to re-gain initiative on quick weapons after an initial attack before enemy can return the attack even once)
• perception, I’m really not sure about. Maybe(?) something with actual vision range during BOTH day and night? I mean, the problem is, this is really NOT a good bonus as you don’t need vision beyond certain radius. And we want something that rewards high stat value with meaningful bonus.

[Trigon]

I agree with your points. I think such a Dex buff would be interesting. Someone mentioned somewhere else having perception give a bonus to ranged critical hit chance which would probably be more fun than bonus vision radius. It could still be used as a dump stat for a melee build but that’s probably fine.

[pikolinian]

Int and/or Per could affect NPC interaction. with large penalties for low stats.

[Tamior]

I agree with your points. I think such a Dex buff would be interesting. Someone mentioned somewhere else having perception give a bonus to ranged critical hit chance which would probably be more fun than bonus vision radius. It could still be used as a dump stat for a melee build but that’s probably fine.

Crit chance will be pretty irrelevant because in the current meta you never really rely on one-hit-shots in ranged combat.
I mean, the very defining feature of ranged builds is that they can keep their distance and keep taking shots. That’s what they do. So one-hits are nice, but they don’t make or break a ranged character.

Now, attack speed in melee is very different, because fast attacks will allow for a hit-and-run tactics. Ranged already has in-build hit-and-run, simply by being ranged.

Also, for dex, it can really work to scale the effectiveness of vehicle turning with dex. So low-dex char can still use a vehicle just fine out of combat, but can’t turn it very fast (crucial in combat). While high-dex will be able to turn very fast, even in combat, giving even more options for hit-and-run.

[Tamior]

Int and/or Per could affect NPC interaction. with large penalties for low stats.

Why exactly should perception influence NPC interactions? Like, what exactly do you have in mind where perception will be the deciding factor in an instance of interaction with NPC?

[Tamior]

Honestly, the more I think about perception, the more I’m not sure it should exist as a separate stat if it does not really do anything… unique and important. I mean, we don’t have a speed as a separate stat. Or endurance. Or charisma. Or agility. Or willpower.

Maybe we can just merge perception with dexterity and call it “reaction” or something?

So strength will remain as “strength + endurance”
Intelligence will remain as “intelligence + charisma”
And “reaction” will become “dexterity + perception”?

I know it’s radical solution, but I really can’t think of anything both unique and important perception can govern…

[Trigon]

I agree with that simplification, though it messes with a lot of other game aspects. It seems like a very extreme fix, and I know the contributors are reluctant to totally remove something. Especially something as big as a full stat. So for our purposes buffing is probably the “best” line of thinking we have working.

[Lerzan]

How did strength and intelligence end up like that to begin with? It seems a lot of the power that the current strength stat gives now is extra damage and extra survivability.

Could perception give more of a ranged hit bonus, or have it increase the critical and graze chances?

[Tamior]

Could perception give more of a ranged hit bonus, or have it increase the critical and graze chances?

It already does.
The problem is that you can get those bonuses by just training the relevant weapon skill. So why use valuable stat points on something you can get by training a skill?

Also keep in mind that the penalty for missing a ranged attack is usually very mild. So maximizing your hit/crit rate is sure nice, but seldom crucial for survival.