Mutation category expansion: experimenting on NPCs derail

[Catfoodbob]

[quote=“Catfoodbob, post:3, topic:8641”]Hyper- Makes you almost constaintly have shaking, amplifies caffine and stimulants, and reduces all action time by 10% “you might have a semi time dialation if you drink 10 atomic cofffies”

Time Dilation after drinking 300 coffees*[/quote]

Beats zombie hulk to death with an aluminum keg of atomic coffee whilist drinking all of it

[wilson7755]

Creates a tear in reality, beating the game.

[Catfoodbob]

I could imagine there would be a point where you have negative movement speed where time flows backwards

[Closet_Pankin]

tfw nobody got the reference

[Stretop]

I could imagine there would be a point where you have negative movement speed where time flows backwards

So you go back in time, prevent the Cataclysm and win the game!

[nickspaceman]

[quote=“Closet Pankin, post:481, topic:3755”]Why not make it that with a high enough cooking and other relevant skill, you could design tier two mutagens? Discover and develop them yourselves after your character has become familiar with mutagens. I don’t mean the character design them yourselves, but have a wide range of premade ‘hidden’ mutations that your character can design based on the new world, with more specific and ‘exotic’ mutagens such as salamander, wasp, snake, etc.

I suppose that mutagen design requires extensive experimentation. Where would you gather test-subjects for this?

Mutation category expansion

Also, how do shock zombies do mad zaps? Never understood that.

Via implanted CBMs.[/quote]

maybe use npcs?

[KA101]

[quote=“Stretop, post:1, topic:8641”][quote=“Closet Pankin, post:481, topic:3755”]Why not make it that with a high enough cooking and other relevant skill, you could design tier two mutagens? Discover and develop them yourselves after your character has become familiar with mutagens. I don’t mean the character design them yourselves, but have a wide range of premade ‘hidden’ mutations that your character can design based on the new world, with more specific and ‘exotic’ mutagens such as salamander, wasp, snake, etc.

I suppose that mutagen design requires extensive experimentation. Where would you gather test-subjects for this?

Mutation category expansion

Also, how do shock zombies do mad zaps? Never understood that.

Via implanted CBMs.[/quote]

maybe use npcs?[/quote]

XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.

(There already are non-purifiable mutations. I don’t advertise them as such in-game, but they exist.)

The current crafting system kinda requires folks to know what they’re making, so the closest we can currently get to a PC-driven research program would be making Obfuscated Mutagen_Foo and letting the player take notes…which only works until the info finds its way onto the wiki and forums.

So yeah, currently not feasible.

[Bonevomit]

XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.

Why not?

[KA101]

[quote=“KA101, post:11, topic:8641”]XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.

Why not?[/quote]

For much the same reason that I object to forced-drugging of NPCs. That will be all.

[Bonevomit]

[quote=“Bonevomit, post:12, topic:8641”][quote=“KA101, post:11, topic:8641”]XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.

Why not?[/quote]

For much the same reason that I object to forced-drugging of NPCs. That will be all.[/quote]
I see what you’re getting at, but that’s a stretch. A big stretch. This is part of my problem. You already have “zombie slaves” in the game. You could make a similar argument then, and yet they exist. Going from that, I don’t think your reasoning holds up.

Involuntary mutants do exist, so this is already happening. You can even play as one. Doing fucked up or unethical things to people isn’t anything new either. So how is this different from all of that? I’m genuinely curious as to how this crosses the line all of a sudden. There seems to be plenty of precedent saying it should be okay.

And after all, what is a mad scientist without his unwilling test subjects? This isn’t something terribly controversial, you see similar stuff in Saturday morning cartoons.

[KA101]

It’s one thing to fight someone. Fighting reanimated corpses is similar. It’s a fight, and they can do unto you as you do unto them.

Exploiting the reanimated corpse is another issue, but there it’s reanimated: the corpse’s former humanity has already been violated. And still it’s a nasty morale hit. Frankly, it wasn’t my idea, and I’ve no problem with removing zlaves if their existence makes you or others think that mucking about with NPCs’ living bodies is somehow OK.

You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.

I expect better.

[kevin.granade]

It’s a very simple and clear line being crossed, a torturous action being performed on a living person.

I see no value in adding the ability to do actions of this kind to the game.

[Bonevomit]

[quote=“KA101, post:15, topic:8641”]It’s one thing to fight someone. Fighting reanimated corpses is similar. It’s a fight, and they can do unto you as you do unto them.

Exploiting the reanimated corpse is another issue, but there it’s reanimated: the corpse’s former humanity has already been violated. And still it’s a nasty morale hit. Frankly, it wasn’t my idea, and I’ve no problem with removing zlaves if their existence makes you or others think that mucking about with NPCs’ living bodies is somehow OK.

You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.

I expect better.[/quote]
attacking a weak or fleeing opponent is not consensual, raping a corpse is still rape(with the help of space goo doesn’t change that), you can literally tie up your zlaves and nuke the refugee center just for the fun of it. And as for things going on off screen, you forget the mutant fetuses you see scattered throughout the labs of the game, the broken cyborgs being denied death, and the contents of that unmarked cabin you find somewhere in the woods. There is plenty of fucked up involuntary shit that goes on right before your eyes.

I don’t know what you expect from me. I asked a question and disagreed with your answer. As far as I know, I am allowed to do that.

We don't have to be happy with dissenting views, nor do they always prevail. But it's good to at least check on problem reports.

This is simply a dissenting view, albeit one that you don't sympathize with. Give me a break.

[EkarusRyndren]

[quote=“Bonevomit, post:17, topic:8641”][quote=“KA101, post:15, topic:8641”]It’s one thing to fight someone. Fighting reanimated corpses is similar. It’s a fight, and they can do unto you as you do unto them.

Exploiting the reanimated corpse is another issue, but there it’s reanimated: the corpse’s former humanity has already been violated. And still it’s a nasty morale hit. Frankly, it wasn’t my idea, and I’ve no problem with removing zlaves if their existence makes you or others think that mucking about with NPCs’ living bodies is somehow OK.

You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.

I expect better.[/quote]
attacking a weak or fleeing opponent is not consensual, raping a corpse is still rape(with the help of space goo doesn’t change that), you can literally tie up your zlaves and nuke the refugee center just for the fun of it. And as for things going on off screen, you forget the mutant fetuses you see scattered throughout the labs of the game, the broken cyborgs being denied death, and the contents of that unmarked cabin you find somewhere in the woods. There is plenty of fucked up involuntary shit that goes on right before your eyes.

I don’t know what you expect from me. I asked a question and disagreed with your answer. As far as I know, I am allowed to do that.

We don't have to be happy with dissenting views, nor do they always prevail. But it's good to at least check on problem reports.

This is simply a dissenting view, albeit one that you don't sympathize with. Give me a break.[/quote] Let me understand your logic, because somebody did something bad sometime you too should do something bad? ...I wasn't aware people actually thought like that, I thought it was just sunday morning cartoon villains.

Fallout had The Master forcibly capturing wastelanders and turning them into super mutants against their will, but I don’t seem to recall that chunk of Fallout where you did the same.
The Reapers in Mass Effect were hellbent on destroying the universe, I don’t recall so much as being given the option to blow up a planet, let alone destroy the universe.
Payday has you robbing banks and selling large quantities of drugs to dealers, I don’t recall a “blow up the orphanage” mission. Hell, the game penalizes you for killing civilians.
Saints Row glorifies crime in every way shape and form, yet I don’t recall the “rape x number of people” achievement.

Just because something could be done in a game, doesn’t mean it should.

[Darkfirephoenix]

And what if we test our cutting edge mutagens on VOLUNTEERS? Ofc only after telling them all the risks, drawbacks etc.

Also: Could we give our companions mutagens/serums if we asked them and they said yes to it? I can imagine that most people would nearly instantly say yes to the Alpha stuff, after a bit say yes to the Medical stuff and after quite some thinking may say yes to the other mutagens (besides those with hard drawbacks like chimera).

You don’t always have to rely on unwilling “test-subjects” to make progress, BUT if you work with volunteers you should slow your progress as not to cause too much damage/possible deadly mutations to the volunteers/MAYBE be able to revert the mutations with purifier. I think that the people in the labs didn’t give a flying fu…k about the test subjects and just pushed the research as fast as they could (mainly to help with the appearing problems), but now you could research in relative “peace” because rushing won’t give you anything now the shi…t already hit the fan.

[iceball3]

On prior discussion: We can currently torture NPCs to death using a spork and a tazer. And them proceed to eat them. Draw your own conclusions.
Are innoccent npcs going to end up unkillable at this rate?

[Stretop]

I object to forced-drugging of NPCs. That will be all.

I still would like to know, how about forced-drugging of NPCs as alternative to, you know, forced-killing of NPCs. Wouldn’t it be nice to have option to put that NPC (who is absolutely sure that he totally have to talk to every chimera he sees) into nice deep sleep unstead of having to brutally butcher him?

Also, I just feel the need to correct:

Fallout had The Master forcibly capturing wastelanders and turning them into super mutants against their will, but I don’t seem to recall that chunk of Fallout where you did the same.

He was genuely trying to improve humanity. After all, from his point of view, harmonious society of super-mutants is far better, than eternally bickering packs of humans.

The Reapers in Mass Effect were hellbent on destroying the universe, I don’t recall so much as being given the option to blow up a planet, let alone destroy the universe.

1. The Reapers in Mass Effect were hellbent on saving the galaxy in accordance to commands of Catalyst, who was tasked with safekeeping said galaxy by his creators.
   More clear in-universe example would be Krogan Wars: Krogans abuse their biological superiority to conquer vast swaths of galaxy. What salarians and turians do? They release the genophage (biological weapon) and severely reduce krogan population with it.
2. As for “I don’t recall so much as being given the option to blow up a planet” - you might try to play different genre for that: 4X game “Distant worlds”, for example, have a living history scenario, in which one very unattractive insect-like race have found a planet-shattering weapon of the ancients and blowing up planets. You are tasked with researching a bio-weapon specifically against that race and with bio-designing gigantic cosmic creatures for delivering it to that race.

Payday has you robbing banks and selling large quantities of drugs to dealers, I don’t recall a “blow up the orphanage” mission. Hell, the game penalizes you for killing civilians.

Because such missions are senseless in context of that game.

Hell, the game penalizes you for killing civilians.

Because mass-slaughter is not profitable and should make police more relentless in pursuing you.

Saints Row glorifies crime in every way shape and form, yet I don’t recall the “rape x number of people” achievement.

Because that would bog down the “mass-mayhem instilling” gameplay. Also in 4-th game thare are not so much living people remains to begin with.

Just because something could be done in a game, doesn’t mean it should.

It really depends…

[Flashlight_Hoarder]

Guys, Guys are you forgetting the Psychopath Trait?

[Pthalocy]

What about it? And remember there’s been discussions about it being generally ill-defined as a trait anyway. Lack of guilt over some actions does not encourage further terrible actions in all cases.

[Stretop]

Guys, Guys are you forgetting the Psychopath Trait?

No, not again. We have already discussed at length that Psychopath Trait does not compel you to do unsightly things (unlike actual, real-life psychopaths with their poor control of their urges and constant thrill-seeking). It is really a misnomer and I again ask for it to be renamed as it continues to confuse gamers.