Zombie Grab Mechanic

[spitss]

I think there should be a grab mechanic for zombie.

The purpose of a such an attack is to make melee combat more difficult and to properly simulate just how easy it would be to be overrun.

Also addresses the absurdity of high levels of dodge where a late game character could be surrounded on all 8 sides by zombies yet still manage to dodge every attack.

By grab mechanic I mean the zombie should try and grab you, if they succeed you cannot attack (melee), move, or reload until you shoot/kill them, or break their grab, (subject to a strength/unarmed skill check).

For example if one zombie had a grab lock on you might need say 4 strength to have a 50% of breaking it per turn, if two zombies had a grab lock on you then you would need 8 strength to have a 50% of breaking it per turn.

(A zombie that had a grab lock on you can only attempt to bite you)

(Being “grabbed” will reduce your dodge skill massively to point where it’s impossible to dodge any incoming attacks)

(Zombie grabbers and brutes will have a much stronger grab attack - requiring 9 - 11 strength to have a 50% of breaking it per turn.)

Edit

I suppose one alternative would be to simulate grabbing by giving the player +1 encumbrance (Torso, legs, arms) for every adjacent zombie, +4 for a grabber zombie.

Edit 2

Another alternative could be a passive speed penalty based on how many adjacent zombies there are.

[Vronkio]

This would certainly be another balance out mechanic for the super strong late game characters. +1 on this

[Binky]

I like the idea of a more ‘passive’ grab effect rather than one that completely stops you doing anything - I really hate having to ‘break free’ in games, especially if it requires me identifying which zombie has got me (with ascii, it’d mean examining each zombie surrounding you). I also imagine that if you got surrounded, you could end up in a ‘loop’ of grabbing, which although might be realistic - would be annoying.

Perhaps it could slow you down by half and give you a big dex penalty? each turn/action you could have a chance of breaking free, with strength adding to that chance?

Fantastic idea though, it’d help balance no end.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

No way. Would turn any/all melee into a grapple-fest for all of the early-mid game.

If this is meant to fix OP dodging: it doesn’t do that. A character can still dodge the grab, therefore a mega-dodger is still untouched in a group of 8 (while newbies get eaten alive).

If this is meant to more accurately simulate dodging while surrounded by a group of 8, another suggestion posted 'round here would be better- something along the lines of ‘decrease dodge by the number of obstructed tiles around you’.
Presto chango you generally don’t dodge as well in any tight quarters, and being surrounded can kill a vet.

If this is meant to make unarmed a required skill, congrats. Swords/hammermen will have to pick up another skill- (which might not make them happy, what with a limited amount of focus to go around)

Just have the grab as a special attack that increases the cost to move/attack/dodge. Would make hordes more intimidating yes, but it’ll still be more ‘more intimidating’ to new characters/players than it would be to vets.

[spitss]

If this is meant to fix OP dodging: it doesn’t do that. A character can still dodge the grab, therefore a mega-dodger is still untouched in a group of 8 (while newbies get eaten alive).

Good point, partly, it’s main function is to make melee combat more risky and difficult. (also gives grabber zombies a reason to exist)

If this is meant to more accurately simulate dodging while surrounded by a group of 8, another suggestion posted 'round here would be better- something along the lines of 'decrease dodge by the number of obstructed tiles around you’.

I like this idea.

Presto chango you generally don’t dodge as well in any tight quarters, and being surrounded can kill a vet.

Only if the game reduces your dodge skill by a percentage of its total ie 12.5 % for every occupied adjacent square, rather than just -1 to dodge for every occupied square.

If this is meant to make unarmed a required skill, congrats. Swords/hammermen will have to pick up another skill- (which might not make them happy, what with a limited amount of focus to go around

Don’t care if I upset swordsmen

Just have the grab as a special attack that increases the cost to move/attack/dodge. Would make hordes more intimidating yes, but it’ll still be more ‘more intimidating’ to new characters/players than it would be to vets.

I suppose one alternative would be to simulate grabbing by giving the player +1 encumbrance (Torso, legs, arms) for every adjacent zombie, +4 for a grabber zombie.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

What about the hammermen?!

Hrm, I’d be reluctant to tie it into encumbrance, (trying to further balance that would be more complicated), but it could work.
Still makes it harder mostly for beginners though.

I am also partial to dodging factoring in adjacent squares. IIRC either I lost the discussion or it tapered off at the point of ‘how to make the mechanic clear to the player’.
A zombie landing a successful grab is easy to mention, (combat log). The dodging mechanic would have to update continuously.

[Binky]

please not encumbrance, it’s already a pain as it is! I mean, I like it as a system and it works very well, but I’d hate it to be tied directly to grabbing.

Decreasing dodging by the number of obstructed tiles is definitely the best way to balance out dodging, but I do like the separate idea of a zombie grabbing you .

I envisage it as a way for them to stop you running away, which as I see it is one of the biggest problems, as you can nearly always retreat from a fight (classic zombies). How about if zombies grabbing you (which they might not always do, something similar to giving you a deep bite I suppose) just slowed you down a lot, and gave you some (small) damage over time?

[Inadequate]

Yeah,I think I’d prefer a passive grab mechanic, where your dodge goes down based on how surrounded you are. Sitting around and pressing the struggle button because that’s the only thing you can do isn’t fun in any game.

That said, the best thing they could do to fix dodge right now would be to fix the bug which allows you to block/dodge while asleep. I tried luring a couple of sewer rats into a spare room and setting up a rollmat there. Haven’t gotten into any melee aside from sleeping in that room, and my dodge is over fifty now.

[spitss]

[quote=“Inadequate, post:8, topic:4070”]Yeah,I think I’d prefer a passive grab mechanic, where your dodge goes down based on how surrounded you are. Sitting around and pressing the struggle button because that’s the only thing you can do isn’t fun in any game.

That said, the best thing they could do to fix dodge right now would be to fix the bug which allows you to block/dodge while asleep. I tried luring a couple of sewer rats into a spare room and setting up a rollmat there. Haven’t gotten into any melee aside from sleeping in that room, and my dodge is over fifty now.[/quote]

We could take 15% from your speed for every adjacent zombie. (40% for grabbers).

[Weyrling]

[quote=“spitss, post:5, topic:4070”]If this is meant to more accurately simulate dodging while surrounded by a group of 8, another suggestion posted 'round here would be better- something along the lines of ‘decrease dodge by the number of obstructed tiles around you’.

I like this idea.

Presto chango you generally don’t dodge as well in any tight quarters, and being surrounded can kill a vet.

Only if the game reduces your dodge skill by a percentage of its total ie 12.5 % for every occupied adjacent square, rather than just -1 to dodge for every occupied square.[/quote]
The future ideal (soft cap) maximum skill is 10, so -1 per square still works out fine imo, if you’re a master at dodging and get surrounded, you’re down to 2 (3 at best) skill, and if you have any torso encumbrance it’s basically down to 0.

This sounds like it’d work out pretty well, as even when you’re surrounded it isn’t like the zombies are made out of razor blades. There’s always some conceivable acrobatics that could evade a zombie bite, but good luck doing acrobatics when you’re carrying a duffel bag.

[kevin.granade]

Terminology issue, what the OP calls a “grab” is more accurately called a “pin”. A “grab” is just what it sounds like, something has grabbed you or your clothing, it doesn’t automatically keep you from doing things. It’s reasonable for a monster to grab you, not so much for a pin (also being pinned isn’t fun).

The system I favor to represent this is when something has you grabbed, it impedes your ability to move, which means yes a penalty to dodge, and resistance to movement. However if you want to hit the enemy that has a grab on you, it does little to nothing to prevent that. This leaves your tactical options open, you can hit the monster, shoot it, (killing it will obviously break the grab), pull away from it(might break the grab, might just pull the monster with you), or ignore it (you might have more pressing problems).

Regarding the surrounded thing, it seems reasonable independent of the grab thing. You could give feedback by informaing the player when a dodge fails because of the surrounded penalty.

[Binky]

Terminology issue, what the OP calls a “grab” is more accurately called a “pin”. A “grab” is just what it sounds like…

This definitely seems like the most sensible route, I think a slow down penalty is all that’s needed really (and not stack dodge with surrounded) as not being able to run fast impedes your survival a lot anyway, and will likely make you more surrounded. I’d like to think of it as a quite rare effect though (or similar to a bite) as otherwise it’d become a bit annoying if most of the times you were in melee you got grabbed.