Worthwhile Martial Arts for Inclusion (make your case here!)

[John_Candlebury]

Awww you didn’t told me if you liked the idea

BTW I dont see power armor offering the flexibility or a martial art that involves more complex moves than supah punching everything but i could see one based around uncanny dodge

[GlyphGryph]

What do you mean? Power armor would conceivably allow for all sorts of interesting grapples and throws and strikes that just aren’t reasonable normally, if we add a power jump to it (which we might, come z-levels) we open up a whole LOT of possibilities for cool stuff.

There’s a lot more to martial arts than flexibility - and besides, the power armor is less encumbering than traditional armor, and there were martial arts perfectly compatible with those.

[John_Candlebury]

It seem we imagine power armor very differently then; i kind off think off something like the bulky fallout like ones. But I suppose that if canonically they are more like the crisis ones they do offer for a lot of interesting things.

You still haven’t said what you think about firearm martial arts

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah and I’m not going to because I don’t.

[John_Candlebury]

aww you guys never like my ideas D:

I mean i see no reason no to add that one it is pretty different from all the rest of things you are discussing and will indeed greatly impact the gameplay of people using it just like a meaning full martial art should be.

te concept is its not even that far fetched is just like being trained to do counter attacks just that instead of doing grabs or throwing punches you are shooting things at point blank range there’s nothing even unrealistic about it.

[kevin.granade]

I’m great with having styles that interact with ranged combat, I think the US and Russian military styles are going to do this kind of thing.

Specific feedback:
-A melee dodge (or a bullet dodge if you have that fancy CBM) greatly increases the change of shooting a critical hit
This makes no sense, but you will get the same effect as I’m planning on having hits on the player decrease aim / increase recoil, so dodging will prevent the accuracy loss. (yes, ranged in melee is going to get HARD, as it should be)
-A critical shot gives you small extra chance of dodging the next attack and a chance of a melee stun
Nuh uh, critical hits do things to the target, they don’t do anything to the attacker, especially with a ranged attack.
-Recoil diminishes much quickly after firing more than 3 shots in short sucession
Sure, a style could totally interact with how well you manage recoil, call it double-tap or triple-tap maybe?
-Melee with handguns have extra chances of stunning
Mimimally we could mark firearms as unarmed weapons for the style, which is generally going to be better for purposes of attack results, and allows them to use style techniques.
-Firing at stunned targets is an almost guaranteed criticl hit.
This could also be an effect of the double/triple-tap technique, I like it.

Additional effects:
Tactical reload - Enhanced reload speed at the cost of dropping spent magazines on the ground (Requires magazines to be seperate items)
Firing Cadence - Alternating fire/pause/fire/pause results in ehanced recoil recovery and aim speed.
Tactical entry - Smashing a door with the style active and a fully loaded eligible gun equipped results in a practiced series of actions, shoot the door lock, kick/shoulder open the door, and fire at a target inside.

I think you can see where I’m coming from, I don’t see any reason to sacrifice realism for fun, because I think we can generally come up with a realistic way to get the fun effects.

[FunsizeNinja123]

I like the magazine idea.

You would have to [A]ctivate the empty mag in your inventory and put the bullets into it. For the sake of… simpleness there will be a pistol mag, a rifle mag, and a SMG mag. Shotgun mag for the saiga. Then come the problem with bullet size restrictions. Maybe code how much of a kind of bullet you can put into a magazine? Say 15 for 9mm and 10 for .44.

Example:

"What will you load into the magazine?"
a. 9mm (100)
b. .45 ACP (100)
c. .44 magnum (100)

“You load 15 9mm bullets into your pistol magazine”

And when you don’t have a magazine with the proper bullets for it:

“You need a magazine with 9mm bullets in it”

You will need to be holding the gun and have the corresponding ammo for it in your hands. Then comes the problem for how spare mag and extended mags will work. Um…

“You attach the extended mag to your rifle magazine”

[kevin.granade]

Heh, nope, this is a “careful what you wish for” situation. If we have discrete magazines, they WILL be typed to only fit one type of ammo, on the other hand every gun will come with a magazine. as with SO many things, I know exactly what I want to do to develop this, but have almost no time to do it.

[FunsizeNinja123]

Ah. Well then I wish you the best of luck.

*Cries in the corner with his ideas

[John_Candlebury]

Well the dodge increasing your chances of a critical hit was a way of simulating you taking advantage of your enemy’s vulnerable stance after a failed attack (this really makes no sense when dodging ranged attacks i have to admit) but i guess this could be better incorporated int the game.

The highly unjustified increase of dodge after a critical hit was to make you getting “in the zone” when using the skill to be able to quickly dispatch crowds (like what happens to the mooks that are holding the protagonist at gunpoint in modern every action movie) perhaps i better example could be the old martial art that increased hit damage when dodging and dodging chances when hitting which is technically the same thing but with punches instead of guns

Other than that i like your special abilities and will be nice if they made it. Also a good addition could be eliminating the recoil penalty that you get when switching weapons so that you could alternate between knife-handgun and don’t lose combat turns

[An0n3]

Krav Maga teaches techniques for beating on people while holding a firearm. They dynamic art of pistol whipping suckas in the face.

I know the army field training manual has techniques for bayonet usage and rifle butts, I would assume the russian equivalent also has a section on how to take a modern battle rifle and eat it piece by piece because those guys are lunatics.

I would agree that the reasons given for TKD’s inclusion weren’t great but that there are other good reasons for it to be included. Functionally it could be implemented as a more dicey all-or-nothing counter-part to karate. Big articulate kicks that are very effective when they land, but have very severe drawbacks when they don’t. If I had to guess I would say Taekwondo and Karate are probably the two most commonly practiced martial arts in the world, so it makes sense for them to survive the apocalypse in some capacity.

EDIT: Also yeah, what Kevin said about gun magazines. That’s so NOT AT ALL HOW GUNS WORK I’d foam at the mouth if I saw it implemented that way. A magazine is only made to hold one type of ammo, be it a single caliber or a specific gauge and length of shotgun shell. Very very rarely you get situations where a gun is a little flexible on what it eats, like most .357magnum revolvers chewing on .380 just fine, shotguns being able to load shells of varying type and length (but always the same gauge).

Those are the exceptions and not the norm. I’d love to see someone try to stuff .50AE rounds into a .22LR mag.

[Rivet]

Very very rarely you get situations where a gun is a little flexible on what it eats, like most .357magnum revolvers chewing on .380 just fine, shotguns being able to load shells of varying type and length (but always the same gauge).

If you’re going to get anal-retentive gun-nerd on somebody, please make sure you have your facts right.

A .357 will happily load and fire .38 special rounds. It will, however, not load .380 ACP rounds because .380 ACP rounds are rimless automatic cartridges.

Also, not all shotguns will load all shells of the same gauge. Try loading a 12 gauge 3.5" shell into your 870 Express and see what happens.

[KA101]

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:51, topic:3299”]What do you mean? Power armor would conceivably allow for all sorts of interesting grapples and throws and strikes that just aren’t reasonable normally, if we add a power jump to it (which we might, come z-levels) we open up a whole LOT of possibilities for cool stuff.

There’s a lot more to martial arts than flexibility - and besides, the power armor is less encumbering than traditional armor, and there were martial arts perfectly compatible with those.[/quote]

Powered-MA wold be pretty embryonic: last lore I’d heard on the stuff was that it’d been in the prototype stage a week or so pre-Cata. Finding someone who’d worked out a style specifically for it…seems pretty unlikely. I don’t think there’d have been time!

(And it would help to pin down a clear definition: Deus Ex or GI Joe-style bodysuits, Fallout-esque massive nuclear-powered metal casements, something else?)

[FunsizeNinja123]

Holy wall of text.

I like it.

[KA101]

MA strikes risking self-damage: No. Just no. Seems like a great way to scare people away from using MA.

(Analogy: weapons wearing out and needing maintenance. Excessively tedious, IMO.)

Rest of it…well, I’m kinda fond of the existing styles. Thanks for not breaking everything.

[GlyphGryph]

I’m personally a fan of MA strikes dealing self-damage if not properly equipped for the sort of damage being dealt out.

Obviously it would depend on the type of attack you are doing and the enemy you’re fighting though - fighting robot turrets with bare-fist punches might not be the best idea.

[John_Candlebury]

^ Well I agree with that because you know common sense but not with the RNG randomly screwing you when you have low skill

Oops you rolled a 1 with that attack to the zombie, you broke your hand

[Leper]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:66, topic:3299”]^ Well I agree with that because you know common sense but not with the RNG randomly screwing you when you have low skill

Oops you rolled a 1 with that attack to the zombie, you broke your hand[/quote]

It’s actually surprisingly easy to dislocate or fracture bones in your hand when fist-fighting, unless you really know what you’re doing or have protective gear.
Even wrapping rags around your hand and weaving them between your fingers helps to keep bones in place.

I’m not an expert on the matter, and I certainly can’t find a balance between realism and gameplay here, but in real life hitting someone in the face is going to hurt pretty badly.

[John_Candlebury]

Well it also surprisingly common for firecrackers to prematurely explode and mutilate your hands, it also very common for things to randomly fall of your pockets while you are walking, waterthight containers puncturing and losing all that precious water, infections to be resistent to antibiotics, having heart attacks with no previous indication

But the point is that this is just a oops the RNG decided to screw you and there was nothing you could do to avoid it mechanic. The penality for fighting low skills should not be breaking bones and irremediably losing the character (remember that if this depends on skills it only going to happen to new characters which cannot build splints and have not chance of actually clearing a hospital) the penality is already enough at is: getting swarmed and killed because you thought your combat skill could take you further.

[Sharklaser]

How about self damage in form of rare hitpoint losses (out of the hat: 3% chance on normal strikes, 10% on criticals - and some maximum of damage gained trough this system. As your limbs get too damaged you would not use them anymore for attacks - thus player health sets boundary for prolonged use of these skills?

But - hitting enemies with unprotected arms/legs would cause often SOME pain. Chance of pain is initially something like 40% per hit, but this one would be capped too to maximum of say - 20 pain points overall from strikes. Also the chance to get more pain points from strikes decreases (you get used to) so the chance gets smaller for each additional point, like:

40% chanse to get pain per hit at pain 0
30% chance to get pain per hit at pain 1
25% chance to get pain per hit at pain 2
20% chance to get pain per hit at pain 3
15% chance to get pain per hit at pain 4
10% chance to get pain per hit at pain 5
etc etc etc…

You could reduce this pain by using gloves/paddings but this would affect the damage delivered too.

Also, the gear youre using would wear out sooner or later the more you punch and kick stuff (same chances as HP damage to bare hand). So you could not use this thing forever even when padded fully, each level of damage to equipment would mean 25% more chance that strike affects your hand directly. Having “reinforced” gear would eliminate one level of damage…

Maybe this would reflect the “self damage” aspect of MA? Maybe not really realistic, but gameworthy maybe?