# Why do kevlar zombies have so much cutting resistance?

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533>\
**Category:** The Garage\
**Created:** [August 22, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533 "2020-08-22T19:25:28Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 17\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/1 "2020-08-22T19:25:28Z")

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> Kevlar zombie:  
> “armor\_bash”: 20,  
> **“armor\_cut”: 30,**  
> “armor\_bullet”: 24,  
> _“This zombie was once wearing some kind of uniform with heavy, bulletproof materials sewn in. At this point it’s impossible to tell what kind of uniform it was: the monster’s skin has grown over the fabric, splitting and tearing it to shreds, turning the remaining Kevlar and other bits of armor material into part of its hide. Its hands, similarly, have fused into large leathery cudgels.”_

> Kevlar hulk:  
> “armor\_bash”: 30,  
> **“armor\_cut”: 50,**  
> “armor\_bullet”: 40,  
> _“This zombie was once wearing some kind of now long-shredded uniform with heavy, bulletproof materials sewn in. It has grown into a hulking, leatherbacked beast, its mutated skin taking on a strange texture similar to the Kevlar bits embedded in it. Its arms have twisted into enormous clubs of misshapen bone that it drags on the ground behind it.”_

While it does say that the kevlar these zombies wear is destroyed or became one with their skin. Soft kevlar armor isn’t very tough vs. cutting weapon, like a sword or broadhead arrow, these can slice with a long distributed cutting surface, much unlike shooting bullets which they have lower armor vs. , for some reason.

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/2 "2020-08-22T19:59:12Z")

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cutting damage used to include bullets if im not mistaken, so part of it could be partially from that, although I suspect it has more to do with wanting to encourage you to use bash type weapons.

Why its even higher than bullet resistance though… because… as far as armour goes your not getting through it one hit very easily? you would have to almost saw through it to cut it effectively? and your not likely to get a chance to do that against an actual opponent?

They do research before they implement that kind of stuff so there is probably a good reason.

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**Author:** ![anothersimulacrum](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/anothersimulacrum/32/10770_2.png) [@anothersimulacrum](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/anothersimulacrum)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/3 "2020-08-22T20:07:38Z")

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The reason that the bullet armor is worse than cut is because when I added bullet damage, I just set the bullet armor equivalent to pierce armor, and have not come back to adjust it.

I’d love if someone else made a PR adjusting all the bullet armor, but I will get to it eventually.

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/4 "2020-08-22T20:15:29Z")

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The main problem with how it stands is how easy it is for a broad arrow can go through mint condition [IIIA body armor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y08hwbz574I?t=5m57s)  
Compare that to using a great bow in CDDA and the broad arrows reflect off kevlar, or using an arming sword and having that bounce off the armor as well.

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/5 "2020-08-22T21:39:33Z")

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Bullet armour is a new feature. Feel free to PR some rebalancing.

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/6 "2020-08-22T22:32:57Z")

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I’ve never contributed by PR for GitHub before, I’ll read their terms of service on pull request.

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**Author:** ![anothersimulacrum](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/anothersimulacrum/32/10770_2.png) [@anothersimulacrum](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/anothersimulacrum)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/7 "2020-08-22T22:37:30Z")

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You probably want the new contributor’s guide too

> **[CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/wiki/Guide-to-adding-new-content-to-CDDA-for-first-time-contributors)**
>
> Cataclysm - Dark Days Ahead. A turn-based survival game set in a post-apocalyptic world. - CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/8 "2020-08-23T03:05:38Z")

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I was going to make the armor like the vest the player makes but stronger, I found that the vest and thus the material of soft kevlar has ether too low bash protection or too high cut protection. The soft kevlar has based on the sheet in-game, it has a density of 1.66 g/cm3. Which is higher than kevlar of 1.44 g/cm3 by my search online, but that might be close enough?

> “name”: “Kevlar”,  
> “density”: 9,  
> “bash\_resist”: 1,  
> “cut\_resist”: 2,  
> “bullet\_resist”: 5,

Also, steel here has less ballistic armor vs guns however has a density of 30 which used a lump of steel in-game I found steel has a density of 8.33 g/cm3. Which is oddly high as that’s higher than iron and steel is normal at about 7.85 g/cm3. This could be that steel in this game is an alloy of tungsten?

> “name”: “Steel”,  
> “density”: 30,  
> “bash\_resist”: 6,  
> “cut\_resist”: 6,  
> “bullet\_resist”: 3,

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/9 "2020-08-23T04:08:19Z")

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Hmm. Are there any common steel alloys at that density or is the game assuming that ‘military grade’ steel is being casually used for everything?

Hmm this old document from MIT is showing tool steels ranging from 7.73 to 8.89, although tool steel SHOULD be denser than standard steel, as that is **the WHOLE point** of being tool steel it is harder than normal so that it can be used for things like drill bits without needing to be replaced/sharpened/repaired every time its used.  
[Material densities](https://web.mit.edu/8.13/8.13c/references-fall/aip/aip-handbook-section2b.pdf)

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/10 "2020-08-23T04:16:48Z")

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Yes tools can have harder steel than normal, but the steel you get off cars and stuff is not the same as harden steel, which is 50% denser and much tougher than the regular kind of steel.

> “name”: “Hard Steel”,  
> “density”: 40,  
> “bash\_resist”: 10,  
> “cut\_resist”: 16,  
> “bullet\_resist”: 9,

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:18am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/11 "2020-08-23T04:18:29Z")

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What units are in game density based on?

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:23am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/12 "2020-08-23T04:23:22Z")

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I can’t tell, but the game has litters that can be converted to 1000 cm3 per a litter to get the density if I’m not mistaken.  
[Steel density](https://amesweb.info/Materials/Density_of_Steel.aspx)

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/13 "2020-08-23T04:31:19Z")

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weird. Best I can figure the in game densities are outdated and based on numbers that at the time were roughly thrown together, possibly from back in the whale days. Or they are based in some random other unit of measure or multiplier to prevent the necessity of getting more granular.

Or just a list of materials in game and how dense they are in comparison to each other, instead of actual density numbers…

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/14 "2020-08-23T04:32:09Z")

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Would it be okay to fix them?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/15 "2020-08-23T04:35:19Z")

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probably. Probably? Probably.  
not really the right person to give a go ahead. I’m just a patron 🙃

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 6:09am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/16 "2020-08-23T06:09:40Z")

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I’m not sure the in game Kevlar vest has very up to date stats to use as a base, and doesn’t bear really any resemblance to a “Kevlar” zombie. I’d be cautious with those numbers

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**Author:** ![TheMasterGear](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themastergear/32/11430_2.png) [@TheMasterGear](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMasterGear)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 6:38am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-do-kevlar-zombies-have-so-much-cutting-resistance/24533/17 "2020-08-23T06:38:01Z")

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The Kevlar zombies seem to be designed to be very tough overall. I wouldn’t change the kevlar body to the zombie version, but rather have the same ratios basically.