# Why Cataclysm 2?

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219>\
**Category:** The Bunker\
**Created:** [May 22, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219 "2014-05-22T21:21:19Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Creamy\_Goodness](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/creamy_goodness/32/292_2.png) [@Creamy\_Goodness](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Creamy_Goodness)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/1 "2014-05-22T21:21:19Z")

</div>

Hey guys, been noticing a lot of talk about the new game by whales, i fairly new to cataclysm itself and just was wondering why did whales give up on cataclysm in the first place? its an awesome game with tons of content, and why, if he gave up on 1, would he try to make a whole other cataclysm, just does not make much sense in my mind

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![StopSignal](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/stopsignal/32/1923_2.png) [@StopSignal](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/StopSignal)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/2 "2014-05-22T21:25:38Z")

</div>

Supposedly, the code was a mess. I suspect he disliked the devs, but i am an ignorant on that topic.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Creamy\_Goodness](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/creamy_goodness/32/292_2.png) [@Creamy\_Goodness](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Creamy_Goodness)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/3 "2014-05-22T21:27:35Z")

</div>

> [@StopSignal](#):
>
> Supposedly, the code was a mess. I suspect he disliked the devs, but i am an ignorant on that topic.

Ah that makes sense, messy code is a problem and a reason to restart. Still though, so much awesome packed into cataclysm, i just dont know how hes going to match it

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![StopSignal](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/stopsignal/32/1923_2.png) [@StopSignal](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/StopSignal)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/4 "2014-05-22T21:29:55Z")

</div>

> [@Creamy Goodness](#):
>
> [quote=“StopSignal, post:2, topic:6219”]Supposedly, the code was a mess. I suspect he disliked the devs, but i am an ignorant on that topic.

Ah that makes sense, messy code is a problem and a reason to restart. Still though, so much awesome packed into cataclysm, i just dont know how hes going to match it[/quote]

With features. Because he totally hates DDA, he wants to make things that we couldn’t do, like Z Levels, and some other stuff. He thinks that most stuff in DDA is completely useless (Wich is totally not, Realism is awesome!). He may be a good coder, and sometimes he is really nice, but when he talks about DDA he becomes mean.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Creamy\_Goodness](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/creamy_goodness/32/292_2.png) [@Creamy\_Goodness](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Creamy_Goodness)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/5 "2014-05-22T21:33:54Z")

</div>

> [@StopSignal](#):
>
> [quote=“Creamy Goodness, post:3, topic:6219”][quote=“StopSignal, post:2, topic:6219”]Supposedly, the code was a mess. I suspect he disliked the devs, but i am an ignorant on that topic.

Ah that makes sense, messy code is a problem and a reason to restart. Still though, so much awesome packed into cataclysm, i just dont know how hes going to match it[/quote]

With features. Because he totally hates DDA, he wants to make things that we couldn’t do, like Z Levels, and some other stuff. He thinks that most stuff in DDA is completely useless (Wich is totally not, Realism is awesome!). He may be a good coder, and sometimes he is really nice, but when he talks about DDA he becomes mean.[/quote]

Lol this just confuses and interests me more and more, he HATES cataclysm? what a heartless demon. should be very interesting to see what he thinks a survival games needs to be good. Be funny as shit if he just ended up making a dayz abortion, less realism brah!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![StopSignal](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/stopsignal/32/1923_2.png) [@StopSignal](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/StopSignal)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/6 "2014-05-22T21:34:58Z")

</div>

> **[Cataclysm 2](http://whalesdev.tumblr.com/)**
>
> A development blog for Cataclysm 2, the sequel to the popular post-apocalyptic roguelike.

Behold.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![StopSignal](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/stopsignal/32/1923_2.png) [@StopSignal](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/StopSignal)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/7 "2014-05-22T21:36:22Z")

</div>

“Just because C2 doesn’t have as much junk and pointless content as DDA, doesn’t mean it’s less complex. In fact, since C2 has Z-levels, it’s much more complex, from an engine standpoint, than DDA.”

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![yonsisac](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/yonsisac/32/8437_2.png) [@yonsisac](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/yonsisac)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/8 "2014-05-22T21:42:20Z")

</div>

good C2 i wonder wen it will be out?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/9 "2014-05-22T21:44:34Z")

</div>

Much easier to implement working z-axis, NPCs, etc from scratch than in a working codebase.

Problem is that it’s much tougher to have a playable & rewarding game from scratch, too, which is one of the reasons DDA dev work keeps going.

Whales tends to think that we overdo it on the gear, etc, and that’s fine. I think that he gets things wrong in places too.

We wish him the best of luck and look forward to mutual success.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Creamy\_Goodness](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/creamy_goodness/32/292_2.png) [@Creamy\_Goodness](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Creamy_Goodness)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/10 "2014-05-22T21:45:16Z")

</div>

> [@StopSignal](#):
>
> “doesn’t have as much junk and pointless content as DDA”

I think he means fun and depth, I don’t find many useless things in cataclysm, in fact most things get praise from me just because its so deep, real, and free, the only things that do manage to bother me in DDA are easy mode things, like pointless traits ( Poor Hearing ) But theres not many of them and it does add to the depth of the game, plus its fully up to you how you create your character

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Candlebury](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/john_candlebury/32/6437_2.png) [@John\_Candlebury](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/John_Candlebury)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/11 "2014-05-22T22:17:05Z")

</div>

Also dont forget to mention that he is taking Cataclysm 2 a completely route, with defined warring factions and a consolidated endgoal, which kinda conflict with open world sandbox. Which is something that he most likely wouldn’t have been allowed to do in here.

Not to mention that its possibly awkward to pass from being the creative director of your own game and having the final world on everything in your game to being just a contributor (albeit one with a big name) who ultimately has nothing but a fraction of power that he has to share with persons who may not share the ultimate vision for his game. IMO thats the biggest reason of why he didn’t join us. I can’t really blame him for that, I would also hate losing the creative freedom of my own stories.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Creamy\_Goodness](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/creamy_goodness/32/292_2.png) [@Creamy\_Goodness](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Creamy_Goodness)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/12 "2014-05-22T22:58:33Z")

</div>

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:11, topic:6219”]Also dont forget to mention that he is taking Cataclysm 2 a completely route, with defined warring factions and a consolidated endgoal, which kinda conflict with open world sandbox. Which is something that he most likely wouldn’t have been allowed to do in here.

Not to mention that its possibly awkward to pass from being the creative director of your own game and having the final world on everything in your game to being just a contributor (albeit one with a big name) who ultimately has nothing but a fraction of power that he has to share with persons who may not share the ultimate vision for his game. IMO thats the biggest reason of why he didn’t join us. I can’t really blame him for that, I would also hate losing the creative freedom of my own stories.[/quote]

Interesting, if that is a fact then the two cant really be compared its more like apples and oranges, though it is strange he would lable it after his first sandbox game if its going to be so different.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![i2amroy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/i2amroy/32/909_2.png) [@i2amroy](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/i2amroy)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/13 "2014-05-22T23:15:50Z")

</div>

> [@Creamy Goodness](#):
>
> Interesting, if that is a fact then the two cant really be compared its more like apples and oranges, though it is strange he would label it after his first sandbox game if its going to be so different.

To be fair that process has been done tons of times by various game developers. For example look at Dwarf Fortress, which originally was “Slaves to Armok II: Dwarf Fortress” (IIRC). Or how about Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (and it’s various spinoffs), most of which are nothing like the original FF games or even the other Crystal Chronicle ones. It’s a fairly common way to capitalize on an existing fanbase by attempting to link a new game to an old one, even if they have nothing in common but being created by the same company.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Creamy\_Goodness](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/creamy_goodness/32/292_2.png) [@Creamy\_Goodness](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Creamy_Goodness)\
**Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/14 "2014-05-22T23:35:10Z")

</div>

> [@i2amroy](#):
>
> [quote=“Creamy Goodness, post:12, topic:6219”]Interesting, if that is a fact then the two cant really be compared its more like apples and oranges, though it is strange he would label it after his first sandbox game if its going to be so different.

It’s a fairly common way to capitalize on an existing fanbase by attempting to link a new game to an old one, even if they have nothing in common but being created by the same company.[/quote]

Im sure not everyone feels the same way i do, but when games label themselves such as Game 1 Game 2 Game 3 it is somewhat frustrating for me when i find its completely different and doesn’t appeal to what was in the other games, such as the huge change from fallout 2-3. But as my example shows its been done before plenty of times.

Who knows it may be fun?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/15 "2014-05-23T00:34:53Z")

</div>

Just to clarify one thing, while he does seem to have some kind of grudge against DDA, he said he wasn’t planning on working on the cataclysm codebase anymore before DDA even existed, so there’s no link between DDA and whales working on a new codebase.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Shadowchaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Shadowchaser](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Shadowchaser)\
**Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/16 "2014-05-23T00:42:22Z")

</div>

Creamy, it may be worth considering that Dark Days Ahead IS kind of like a sequel of sorts, as it’s a radically changed (and, in my opinion at least, improved) product over the original Cataclysm, while Cataclysm 2 is a completely different take on another Cataclysm game.

At least, that’s my understanding, that when the game became DDA, with the collaborative development, it became a separate and distinct entity from just “Cataclysm”.

That’s how I’ve always thought of it anyway. But I admit I haven’t exactly been here from day one. That said, it’s probably not a bad way to look at it if sequelitis gives you issues.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/17 "2014-05-23T00:53:24Z")

</div>

When I first started it was very much WWWD?, but afte whales closed up shop completely and we officially founded DDA, it has become its own thing distinct from the original cataclysm.  
Many of the things I’m most proud of in DDA (data-driven entities, multi-language handling, static spawning, high degrees of caching) are complete departures from the way cataclysm was designed.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![kilozombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e274bd/32.png) [@kilozombie](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kilozombie)\
**Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/18 "2014-05-23T01:26:35Z")

</div>

Whales is free to think that the game is filled with “useless content” or “junk”, but it seems a hell of a lot more fun to actually play than Cataclysm 2 might end up being.

Sure, we’re building off not-entirely-clean code. But DDA is a beautiful thing anyhow, and we’ve made a lot out of very little.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![StopSignal](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/stopsignal/32/1923_2.png) [@StopSignal](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/StopSignal)\
**Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/19 "2014-05-23T01:32:09Z")

</div>

I’d still love to have Z-levels, tough…  
But heh, i prefer DDA!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Hibou](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/hibou/32/1330_2.png) [@Hibou](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Hibou)\
**Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219/20 "2014-05-23T02:12:44Z")

</div>

Weren’t Z-levels promised as part of the kickstarter?

[Next page](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/why-cataclysm-2/6219.md?page=2)