Understanding damage types

[Sunflash]

and so the forums rediscover one of the great limitations of ascii type games. you can only cram so much into one square before SOMETHING breaks.

[system]

The gaming world would be a better place if everyone watched Lindybeige…

[Muaddib]

The gaming world would be a better place if everyone watched Lindybeige…

pops monocle in eyesocket and drinks a 55-litre gallon drum of tea

LINDY~BEIGE!

[Burnt_Earth]

I’m okay with polearm type weapons working like the bullwhip does now. Maybe with swinging weapons, like whatever samurai-horse-killing swords and halberds and the sort, you have a damage bonus to further targets because they’d be in the power arc of the swing, but it’d have an to-hit penalty, while the reverse might be true for a spear-type weapon.

Also I think NPCs at least should be able to grab your stupid pike at the end and take it away from you because that’s what would happen if you’re not packed into a formation of people wielding pikes.

[FrankyPlaysGames]

What if you can activate a spear for thrusting? It could create something akin to a vehicle in front of you that you have to “push” into the zombie

[Barhandar]

What if you can activate a spear for thrusting? It could create something akin to a vehicle in front of you that you have to “push” into the zombie

That is an…unorthodox way of doing it, and also misses the lack of “facing” most everything but vehicles have.

Also I think NPCs at least should be able to grab your stupid pike at the end and take it away from you because that’s what would happen if you’re not packed into a formation of people wielding pikes.

Spears and pikes already have way too much downsides - they’re weak, they get stuck all the time with very unnoticeable message in the log (because of some genius just dumping it instead of messaging), and they’re missing the primary advantage real-life polearms have, reach, because of lack of dedicated “attack” button.

Speaking of which, bullwhip is annoying, but what difficulties lie in making a fake new weapon type that is ranged, but takes its (hidden for the player) ranged damage values from the cutting and bashing damages of the item for purposes of calculation compatibility, and doesn’t cause the item to be dropped or modified (unless it got stuck)? That would essentially make polearms have reach without stuffing them into clunky ranged type with all the UI issues.

[Bradley364]

[quote=“Rookie, post:42, topic:8441”]The gaming world would be a better place if everyone watched Lindybeige…

pops monocle in eyesocket and drinks a 55-litre gallon drum of tea

LINDY~BEIGE![/quote]

Love me some 'Beige. Hes a wonderful content creator!

[chevil]

Also I think NPCs at least should be able to grab your stupid pike at the end and take it away from you because that’s what would happen if you’re not packed into a formation of people wielding pikes.

There are no 4 meter long pikes in cata yet. I would like to see you try to take a spear or a awl pike from me it would be a fun experience.

If spears had a reach attack I would consider using them. THIS IS A GOOD IDEA

[Closet_Pankin]

[quote=“FunsizeNinja123, post:4, topic:8441”]Attack time, bashing, cutting (Don’t ever look at piercing stats, they’re not in yet), weight, and volume are what you should be looking at.

The fire axe has great cutting and bashing, but is heavy, has a high volume, and has a slow attack time.

The weapons in the Historical weapons-smith are actually better than the fire axe, just wait until you craft them and test them out in the field.[/quote]

A broadsword with decent melee/cutting skill is truly a weapon fit for a king. I mean that somewhat literally as well - it’s fast, accurate and does high damage. Bonus points if you make it into a firebrand!

[Arkenstone]

I think it is ultimately a matter of balancing, yes. Regardless of “realism”, what would make the weapon paths viable and interesting paths to follow?

[Coolthulhu]

I think it is ultimately a matter of balancing, yes. Regardless of “realism”, what would make the weapon paths viable and interesting paths to follow?

Removing weapons getting stuck mechanics. It only nerfs bad weapons further into badness and does absolutely nothing to the really good weapons.

[Barhandar]

Removing weapons getting stuck mechanics. It only nerfs bad weapons further into badness and does absolutely nothing to the really good weapons.

Getting stuck and lost yes, but getting stuck and pulled out nope, should stay. Maybe instead of chance to pull it out on getting stuck making damage bonus from pulling out be strength-dependent? And some (barbed/serrated) weapons having higher bonus multiplier.

[i2amroy]

I think it is ultimately a matter of balancing, yes. Regardless of “realism”, what would make the weapon paths viable and interesting paths to follow?

Umm, Cata is real-world based. You’re never going to see a broadsword +1 -> broadsword +2 type of thing (or a sword->broadsword->longsword one either) simply because that’s not how it works in the real world, which Cata functions identically to except in scenarios where we outline reasons for it not to. Balancing is important, yes, but the ultimate goal is to avoid “gamey” progressions, since you don’t see them in the real world.

[Arkenstone]

[quote=“Arkenstone, post:50, topic:8441”]I think it is ultimately a matter of balancing, yes. Regardless of “realism”, what would make the weapon paths viable and interesting paths to follow?

Umm, Cata is real-world based. You’re never going to see a broadsword +1 -> broadsword +2 type of thing (or a sword->broadsword->longsword one either) simply because that’s not how it works in the real world, which Cata functions identically to except in scenarios where we outline reasons for it not to. Balancing is important, yes, but the ultimate goal is to avoid “gamey” progressions, since you don’t see them in the real world.[/quote]

That’s not what I meant, but to some extent, I think that we may have to agree to disagree on this. Real world arguments are useful as a point of information, but I think can be ultimately rather moot as our knowledge of the “real world” is itself subject to debate. Only one needs to see all of the katana vs longsword arguments to behold that.

Cataclysm may be real-world based for a certain definition of “based”(the Venom Mob skills are standouts); but ultimately games are largely “a series of meaningful choices” as Sid Meier put it.

If there is ever a place where, for example, that cutting weapons universally and completely outclass pole-based weapons at every point in the game, then the series of meaningful choices is null - it is just an obvious choice. The player can only make the “wrong” choice in that scenario. Now this is obviously an extreme example, but it is an useful point to consider from.

Likewise, of course, is the risk of just allowing a player to powerspike at the very beginning of the game - say if the player had the best weapons at the very beginning and the only challenges were combat-focused, and there was no real reason to provide a sense of growth. Of course, the C:DDA draft clearly indicates that is not what is intended and certainly the challenges are not purely hack and slash either. But ultimately, this plays into the same consideration: choices should be relatively balanced, and permit a fashion of forward growth that feels rewarding.

It probably was just a misunderstanding of how I expressed myself.

[Litppunk]

[ul]on the other side of things throwing weapons seem a little OP (although don’t take my word for it, im level 14 throwing in my first summer and haven’t left my town yet.) I am sure throwing weapons will become insufficient soon enough. IRL Spears are very interesting as a weapon because they are so easy to underestimate. It is a stick with a pointy end, it can’t lie that is all it is, and yet it has a combined reach and swiftness that allow a practiced user to do a great many sweeping, slashing, stabbing/thrusting variety of attacks as well as parry, and counter parry any shorter ranged weapon with a few simple twirls ending in a counter attacking stab or slash.

[spoiler=Ideas for spear weapons:](by all means throw me the bird and pay me no head I should still be classified as “noob”)
[list]
[li]do the bull whip idea giving it a range of 2, when used like this enemy only pulled towards if weapon gets stuck, but have chance for experienced users to “you kick your enemy, dislodging the spear” with a result of the enemy doesn’t get pulled into the adjacent square but still suffers the normal damages of weapon and the ripping out with maybe a slight blunt damage bonus for the kick/shove[/li][/list]
potential problem… with the circle ranges mode instead of square based ranges
[list][li]make it so that only the “longer” spear weapons have any range of 2 abilities.
[/li]

[li]make sure spears and other pole-arm/pole-axe type weapons are their own class. I assume piercing? or maybe you have it mixed in with others… which doesn’t seem accurate
[/li]

[li]have range 1 attacks have a slight attack speed buff or range 2 have slight debuff, same diff.
[/li]

[li]have spear type weapons have a better chance of parrying/ chance to counter attacks from opponents with conventional weapons but more likely to suffer damage to the weapon in the process
[/li]

[li]some of the firearms have toggle-able fire modes apply that to spears to switch between stabbing/thrusting and slashing/sweeping type attacks with slashing doing more minor damage and low critical his but a little more pushing side to side.
[/li]

[li]If at any point the spear type weapons have need of a major debuff have a chance to have stabbing type attacks “went all the way through” on not headshot attacks especially on low/unarmored soft targets like that of the rotting flesh zombies. resulting in the weapon not being able to be pulled out untill its dead/needing a successful kick attack to send it out the back and leaving it sitting on the tile behind[/li][/list]
…not sure if there is even a kick attack that isn’t part of a random chance from martial arts.[/ul]

hmmm think that is all off the top of my head. Let me know if I need to shut up and go back to noobing out untill I know the game better, but I think I managed to at least sound like I knew what I was talking about. Hope if nothing else it gives you some ideas on ways to tweak with the spears.
[/spoiler]

[Barhandar]

[quote=“Arkenstone, post:54, topic:8441”]That’s not what I meant, but to some extent, I think that we may have to agree to disagree on this. Real world arguments are useful as a point of information, but I think can be ultimately rather moot as our knowledge of the “real world” is itself subject to debate. Only one needs to see all of the katana vs longsword arguments to behold that.

Cataclysm may be real-world based for a certain definition of “based”(the Venom Mob skills are standouts); but ultimately games are largely “a series of meaningful choices” as Sid Meier put it.

If there is ever a place where, for example, that cutting weapons universally and completely outclass pole-based weapons at every point in the game, then the series of meaningful choices is null - it is just an obvious choice. The player can only make the “wrong” choice in that scenario. Now this is obviously an extreme example, but it is an useful point to consider from.

Likewise, of course, is the risk of just allowing a player to powerspike at the very beginning of the game - say if the player had the best weapons at the very beginning and the only challenges were combat-focused, and there was no real reason to provide a sense of growth. Of course, the C:DDA draft clearly indicates that is not what is intended and certainly the challenges are not purely hack and slash either. But ultimately, this plays into the same consideration: choices should be relatively balanced, and permit a fashion of forward growth that feels rewarding.

It probably was just a misunderstanding of how I expressed myself.[/quote]
The problem with balance of polearms in Cata is that currently only way to attack at distance is firing - including rather clunky version of “firing” bullwhip uses. If it would be possible to extend the reach without crutches like this - or at very least, these crutches being hidden in the code, UI not showing that the weapon is essentially ammo-less gun - then polearms suddenly would have much more use.

[system]

I hope a solution is this problem leads to the following:
The f key isn’t just for firing guns anymore, rather for “advanced attack”. Walking into an enemy works just like before buut if you are wielding a meele weapon it lets you
+attack from afar(if spear/pike)

• waiting with . or 5 (similar to aiming) let you aim and/or wind up your strike. The enemy almost down and a quick strike would suffice? Do it. A stealth mechanic is there and you stand behind an enemy that hasn’t noticed you yet and you want to hit the head with maximum precision and power? Do it.
  +Hitting F would swap between dmg types of a weapon (e.g. slashing and stabbing on a knife or bashing/piercing on a spea

[Barhandar]

[quote=“Rookie, post:57, topic:8441”]I hope a solution is this problem leads to the following:
The f key isn’t just for firing guns anymore, rather for “advanced attack”. Walking into an enemy works just like before buut if you are wielding a meele weapon it lets you
+attack from afar(if spear/pike)

• waiting with . or 5 (similar to aiming) let you aim and/or wind up your strike. The enemy almost down and a quick strike would suffice? Do it. A stealth mechanic is there and you stand behind an enemy that hasn’t noticed you yet and you want to hit the head with maximum precision and power? Do it.
  +Hitting F would swap between dmg types of a weapon (e.g. slashing and stabbing on a knife or bashing/piercing on a spea[/quote]
  Yes, that is one of the ways, since f-as-fire and f-as-reach uses are mutually exclusive - there’s no punt gun bayonets in Cata, or gunpikes. And even if there were any it would be possible to add a switch between reach and firing.
  And throwing is handled by a different key already.

[KA101]

[quote=“Barhandar, post:58, topic:8441”][quote=“Rookie, post:57, topic:8441”]I hope a solution is this problem leads to the following:
The f key isn’t just for firing guns anymore, rather for “advanced attack”. Walking into an enemy works just like before buut if you are wielding a meele weapon it lets you
+attack from afar(if spear/pike)

• waiting with . or 5 (similar to aiming) let you aim and/or wind up your strike. The enemy almost down and a quick strike would suffice? Do it. A stealth mechanic is there and you stand behind an enemy that hasn’t noticed you yet and you want to hit the head with maximum precision and power? Do it.
  +Hitting F would swap between dmg types of a weapon (e.g. slashing and stabbing on a knife or bashing/piercing on a spea[/quote]
  Yes, that is one of the ways, since f-as-fire and f-as-reach uses are mutually exclusive - there’s no punt gun bayonets in Cata, or gunpikes. And even if there were any it would be possible to add a switch between reach and firing.
  And throwing is handled by a different key already.[/quote]

Heh? There are about three different types of bayonet, and something like a SVD (yeah, I know, major modern sniper rifle that also takes a bayonet isn’t 'Murrican, how about the M82?) with sword bayonet might be long enough to get into the adjacent tile.

Firing the gun and jabbing the bayonet could both be options.

[Barhandar]

[quote=“KA101, post:59, topic:8441”]Heh? There are about three different types of bayonet, and something like a SVD (yeah, I know, major modern sniper rifle that also takes a bayonet isn’t 'Murrican, how about the M82?) with sword bayonet might be long enough to get into the adjacent tile.

Firing the gun and jabbing the bayonet could both be options.[/quote]
Adjacent tile is functionally equal to current “walking into the enemy” damage mechanic unless you really wish to either add a switch between firing and stabbing into ‘f’ menu, or use a separate key for “melee attack”. And no gun is wieldy enough to attack enemy across one empty tile reliably, regardless of bayonet.
Either technically would allow the distinction between “stand in place and hack at enemy” (moderate length weapons, like pipes or a broadsword), where you don’t move when enemy gets knocked back or pushed, and “attack enemy at really close distance” (unarmed weapons, knives…) where you do move with the enemy.