# Throwing martial arts

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Tags:** trainwreck\
**Created:** [June 23, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757 "2018-06-23T06:51:42Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/82 "2018-06-24T03:24:59Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/123):
>
> Meh, just take Taekwondo, or make something based on it that has more knockback/stun. Then you have an(other) MA for all ranged weapons.

But then I lack the ability to bow strangel! Or to bow wrangle! It could be used so well as an impromptu shepards hook to throw them on their face!

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/124):
>
> Agreed and said so. I’m trying to get martial arts tec into the throwing code so we can use the JSON down the road.

how would the martial arts affect anything in the throwing side of the code? Why would it need to be implemented there?

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**Author:** ![VictorSegall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/victorsegall/32/2551_2.png) [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/83 "2018-06-24T03:26:05Z")

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I’d just be quoting myself.

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**Author:** ![darktoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/84 "2018-06-24T03:26:59Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/125):
>
> But then I lack the ability to bow strangel! Or to bow wrangle! It could be used so well as an impromptu shepards hook to throw them on their face!

Again, probably just going to break the bow. Bows are surprisingly fragile as far as anything that isn’t shooting an arrow is concerned.

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/85 "2018-06-24T03:30:43Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/125):
>
> how would the martial arts affect anything in the throwing side of the code? Why would it need to be implemented there?

The melee code calls to a function that calls for the MA techniques. He’s proposing adding that to the ranged one so ranged techniques can be called.  
Techniques.json, mind you, contains both martial arts techniques and item techniques.

He’s also proposing using it through martial arts that use those techniques, rather than as item techniques, regardless of the _many_ flaws pointed out so far.

The issue with using the MA code is that techniques aren’t the most reliable thing in the world to proc. For some things, they’re fine, but for some others, they are a poor choice.

They are also entirely binary, either it can proc or it cannot, you cannot implement a bonus that gradually grows with skill, or gradually increase the proc chances with more skill.

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/86 "2018-06-24T03:30:46Z")

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It would be a martial art that included a throwable weapon, not an art the affected the throwing, unless it does something capibera sttyle giving bonuses (in this case negating downsides?) from moving

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/127):
>
> Again, probably just going to break the bow. Bows are surprisingly fragile as far as anything that isn’t shooting an arrow is concerned.

If you tried to get em at the corner? sure. But what if you used the middle like their neck was an arrow? Then threw their head into a wall “stunning” them

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/87 "2018-06-24T03:33:04Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/129):
>
> If you tried to get em at the corner? sure. But what if you used the middle like their neck was an arrow? Then threw their head into a wall “stunning” them

Sorry, nope. The string would break, unless the wood gives up first.

The only way it’d work is if it was a bow made for a superstrong brute, made out of adamantium and moustache hair from Chuck Norris.

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**Author:** ![VictorSegall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/victorsegall/32/2551_2.png) [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/88 "2018-06-24T03:34:54Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/128):
>
> He’s also proposing using it through martial arts that use those techniques, rather than as item techniques, regardless of the _many_ flaws pointed out so far.

I didn’t say rather than. Never made a solid claim either way. Have only given hypothetical examples and conceptual arguments.

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**Author:** ![darktoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/89 "2018-06-24T03:35:25Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/129):
>
> If you tried to get em at the corner? sure. But what if you used the middle like their neck was an arrow? Then threw their head into a wall “stunning” them

So just throw them into a wall?

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/130):
>
> Sorry, nope. The string would break, unless the wood gives up first.

If you don’t exceed the poundage of the bow it might work. Or you could just stab them with a knife…

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/90 "2018-06-24T03:37:27Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/132):
>
> If you don’t exceed the poundage of the bow it might work.

But then it’d need enough poundage to _lift a grown man by the neck_. That’s a brute-custom bow by definition.

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**Author:** ![darktoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/91 "2018-06-24T03:38:32Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/133):
>
> But then it’d need enough poundage to _lift a grown man by the neck_ . That’s a brute-custom bow by definition.

Not lift, just strangle. You can do that with normal string, a bow string should have no trouble.

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/92 "2018-06-24T03:40:07Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/128):
>
> The melee code calls to a function that calls for the MA techniques.

well then he still isn’t agreed dispite his say so and I still oppose throwing martial arts as he suggests.

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/130):
>
> The only way it’d work is if it was a bow made for a superstrong brute, made out of adamantium and moustache hair from Chuck Norris.

Are you saying we shouldn’t plan for that eventuallity? Impossibility of aquiring a Chuck hair without permission asside, the stress on the string would be less than dry firing the bow, it would be slower draw against more weight, but the forces would still be less unless you managed to bring it past a full draw without them having enough give.

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/132):
>
> So just throw them into a wall?

And touch zombie throat directly?!?!?

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/133):
>
> But then it’d need enough poundage to _lift a grown man by the neck_ . That’s a brute-custom bow by definition.

Not lift, pull over, topple, unbalence expiditiously into the forementioned wall.

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/93 "2018-06-24T03:42:46Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/131):
>
> I didn’t say rather than. Never made a solid claim either way. Have only given hypothetical examples and conceptual arguments.

give 1 solid solidish example. where would it be benificial compared with just adjusting the precision hit bonuses?

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**Author:** ![VictorSegall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/victorsegall/32/2551_2.png) [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:45am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/94 "2018-06-24T03:45:16Z")

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You don’t agree to my concept of adding to yours. I agree with your concept and want it opened to other opportunities.

By your refusal there is no sufficient example.

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/95 "2018-06-24T03:50:55Z")

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add martial arts that target weapons not covered by other martial arts, fine, maybe even narrow the other arts or declining bonuses for less similar weapons than the target ones.

But what, other than reduced aim penalties for movement, would a martial art involving throwing weapons add to the throwing of them that would be an accurate dipiction of an actual advantage that art would give with that weapon while THROWING it?

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/96 "2018-06-24T03:55:36Z")

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Your concept is entirely different in implementation. One is on the code and item json side that implements effects gradually based on skill level, the other is through the entirely different system that is the techniques code, which is entirely unaffected by skill level once you reach the threshold and has a very specific triggering mechanic that can be undesirable for many things.

You also went on and on about a way of doing things that nobody else liked, and everyone else poked holes at, which you kept insisting on without addressing any of said holes, nor provide even a single example when prompted. Only backtracking and pretending you never said anything.

The other opportunities would be… guns? You want to argue about… what? Gangsta shooting doing more damage?

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**Author:** ![VictorSegall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/victorsegall/32/2551_2.png) [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 3:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/97 "2018-06-24T03:57:38Z")

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You consistently misrepresent and follow with insult. The last I’ll speak of that.

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**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/98 "2018-06-24T04:08:47Z")

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um… ok, you poked holes at my suggestion once that I can think of, and I replied and rereplied a few times about it because I got over psyched thinking up realish world senarios, then argued over if martial arts would have anything to add to the area. What did I ignore? It was not intentional, and I don’t think anyone else commented on it before or after, other than to mention item specials vs martials or items + martial.

Hmm john wick style fighting is what you probably thought I meant, but I was refering to something that was developed… I think in israel, using guns in CQC hand to hand combat.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![VictorSegall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/victorsegall/32/2551_2.png) [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/99 "2018-06-24T04:12:56Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/138):
>
> But what, other than reduced aim penalties for movement, would a martial art involving throwing weapons add to the throwing of them that would be an accurate dipiction of an actual advantage that art would give with that weapon while THROWING it?

What does boxing do for a punch while throwing it? Half a thread ago:

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/55):
>
> Separate throwing weapons from throwing. That’s two skills, not \* amount. All throwing weapon arts would use the one throwing weapons skill.
> 
> Throwing a “throwing weapon” while not in a martial art that has that weapon in it would throw the item as a generic. It would still throw, and would increase “throwing” skill, not “throwing weapons” skill.
> 
> Throwing a “throwing weapon” while in a correct martial art would allow defined techniques to trigger. Those techniques would account for the object being thrown correctly. Example: Throwing an axe while in Okichitaw style could stack cut and pierce onto the damage. Without the style, the axe throw would either do the damages on the weapon definition or the damages from generic weight & volume math. I would choose weight & volume.
> 
> Equiping a multipurpose weapon, like tomahawk, while using the correct style, would also trigger its melee tecs. E.g., you’d get the weapon+style-specific blocks, counters, etc.
> 
> Martial arts have “throwing arts” in them, as techniques within the style.

Done on separate skills so that plain “throwing”, with anything throwable whatsoever, has all of its balancing intact.

We’d decide later what deserves to go into the techniques, and would almost certainly do that in mods.

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/100 "2018-06-24T04:17:18Z")

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\*blink\*  
\*Points at the sign saying who I was replying to on the previous post\*  
Victor has been mentioning martial arts throwing since about 10 hours ago, and has been promoting his idea of martial throwing consistently since that post he just quoted.

In general, I halfway like your proposal @Litppunk, I’d rather have something with a stronger effect at low skill level, but that can be done in your suggestion by toying with the thresholds for some beginner-friendly weapons.

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/141):
>
> Hmm john wick style fighting is what you probably thought I meant, but I was refering to something that was developed… I think in israel, using guns in CQC hand to hand combat.

Not really, because that’d be hitting with the weapon or alongside the weapon, not giving special effects triggered on shooting, which is the support Victor is going for.

Current code can handle CQC just fine, with the issue that guns are kinda fragile and not too good at it, so it’s better to just Taekwondo and kick the shit of anyone up close rather than weapon bashing.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Litppunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/litppunk/32/409_2.png) [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/101 "2018-06-24T04:27:31Z")

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> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/143):
>
> _blink_

oh… OH derp XD sorry. Yeah, its pretty rough stage, but as a concept I think its probably the best way. The idea would be that you would have random (poor?) chance (dpending on the weapon?) of getting the specials triggered, skill would mean you could intentionally get the trigger the way you want.  
It would probably be switchable similar to firemode on guns (once you had the skill to attempt hitting it with any particular part.)

> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/142):
>
> Done on separate skills so that plain “throwing”, with anything throwable whatsoever, has all of its balancing intact.

auto triggering weapon styles I can see being benificial (I think i missed that first read.) but I don’t see how that would be throwing. Currently you don’t typically wield throwing weapons. Even if you are, it doesn’t effect the throwing itself, but would be benificial to someone using that throwing weapon. But why would Okichitaw give any kind of bonus to the throwing itself? is your general proficency with the weapon making you throw it better? That would be better represented by a straight XP boost on reading the book/ gaining the martial art.

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