# Throwing martial arts
**URL:** https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757
**Category:** The Drawing Board
**Tags:** trainwreck
**Created:** [June 23, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757 "2018-06-23T06:51:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 2:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/62 "2018-06-24T02:51:25Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/102):
>
> Please give any evidence that throwing should be handled with martial arts mechanic rather than with calculation of stegth and weapon specials.
I’ve never said it should be that way. I’ve consistently said that martial arts add on, do not replace.
Point is that if your fighting style does not train you in the weapon, then you get the same weapon performance everyone else gets. That simple.
---
### Author:  [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/63 "2018-06-24T02:54:55Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/104):
>
> Err… I’m arguing **against** the proposal of using a martial arts, from _several_ angles. This is about the second time you’ve quoted me while actually arguing against someone else.
um… sorry? I was agreeing with you, and expanding.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/105):
>
> I’ve never said it should be that way. I’ve consistently said that martial arts add on, do not replace.
So the martial art would not change anyting about actually throwing then, only using the weapon in melee? That… would still have to be handled on a weapon by weapon basis, and has nothing to do with throwing.
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### Author:  [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/64 "2018-06-24T02:55:39Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/102):
>
> I would not argue a martial art of the bow after I saw this earlier today when looking into my own tangent. Bows having a martial art would be awesome. Not sure if it would have any effect on SHOOTing the bow other than less penalty for movements before shooting.
I’ve had that discussion before. Bow “martial arts” just aren’t practical.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/105):
>
> I’ve never said it should be that way. I’ve consistently said that martial arts add on, do not replace.
>
> Point is that if your fighting style does not train you in the weapon, then you get the same weapon performance everyone else gets. That simple.
Exactly. No martial art deals specifically with thrown weapons, so there’s no reason to involve thrown weapons in martial arts at all.
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### Author:  [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/65 "2018-06-24T02:57:56Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/107):
>
> I’ve had that discussion before. Bow “martial arts” just aren’t practical.
I can live with that, but its hard not to want after seeing this.
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk)
The followup video makes it feel slightly less cringy.
Still would not effect shooting directly, any more than anything affecting throwing weapons.
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### Author:  [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/66 "2018-06-24T03:00:50Z")
He’s specifically who was talked about. It’s a cute trick, but that bow at that draw isn’t going to hit anything, let alone seriously wound anyone, at any decent range. When he shoots at range he doesn’t shoot nearly that fast or dance about like that.
If his method was so great then Olympic archers would use it.
---
### Author:  [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/67 "2018-06-24T03:05:02Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/106):
>
> So the martial art would not change anyting about actually throwing then, only using the weapon in melee?
Earlier I suggested an example throwing technique that adds pierce and cut damage to axe throws, on premise that it’s a better throw. In the same example I had the axe using tomahawk melee techniques for block; that block uses the haft and blade curve to catch the opponent’s forearm.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/107):
>
> I’ve had that discussion before. Bow “martial arts” just aren’t practical.
Agreed. But can we have Gun Fu?
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/107):
>
> No martial art deals specifically with thrown weapons, so there’s no reason to involve thrown weapons in martial arts at all.
Time to delete WBLOCK\_3 because shields aren’t special enough to be included in martial arts.
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### Author:  [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/68 "2018-06-24T03:05:48Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/109):
>
> If his method was so great then Olympic archers would use it.
its not olypically practical. On a battlefield, where you need to duck out of the way of a swordsman, or zombie arm and pop it in the face real quick, practically without slowing? that would be nice. Then having some effects for using the bow as a weapon? It makes for nice daydreams. Lower damage and accuray, but the ability to fire on the move with less penalty would be a sweet perk.
---
### Author:  [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:08am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/69 "2018-06-24T03:08:54Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/110):
>
> Time to delete WBLOCK\_3 because shields are special enough to be included in martial arts.
by your own argument it stays because a martial art involving shields would expand on it.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/110):
>
> Agreed. But can we have Gun Fu?
thats already a thing being worked on I think. Forget the name. Unless it got dropped or abandoned… or never picked up.
but none of this is relavent to throwing weapons, except for when they arn’t thrown.
---
### Author:  [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/70 "2018-06-24T03:09:50Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/110):
>
> Earlier I suggested an example throwing technique that adds pierce and cut damage to axe throws, on premise that it’s a better throw. In the same example I had the axe using tomahawk melee techniques for block; that block uses the haft and blade curve to catch the opponent’s forearm.
We can have “better throws” without implementing a weirdass martial art. And the other bit is just melee, which is already handled.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/110):
>
> Agreed. But can we have Gun Fu?
Ehhh it’s not really something that can be well modelled ingame. You already basically have that from very high marksmanship and pistol skills if you’re using a pistol. The ability to kick things down/away while wielding any weapon would be super cool though.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/110):
>
> Time to delete WBLOCK\_3 because shields are special enough to be included in martial arts.
That’s a weapon technique, not a martial art technique.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/111):
>
> its not olypically practical. On a battlefield, where you need to duck out of the way of a swordsman, or zombie arm and pop it in the face real quick, practically without slowing? that would be nice. Then having some effects for using the bow as a weapon? It makes for nice daydreams. Lower damage and accuray, but the ability to fire on the move with less penalty would be a sweet perk.
You can “pop it in the face real quick” but the arrow won’t penetrate. You need to fully draw to do damage and he doesn’t most of the time.
Hitting something with a bow is a great way to break it.
---
### Author:  [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/71 "2018-06-24T03:10:25Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/112):
>
> by your own argument it stays because a martial art involving shields would expand on it.
Right, but it’s not a shield technique. It’s called “shield” but it’s just a block. Being facetious.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/113):
>
> Ehhh it’s not really something that can be well modelled ingame.
What if it’s larped Gun Fu and requires Dweeb profession?
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### Author:  [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/72 "2018-06-24T03:12:35Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/113):
>
> You can “pop it in the face real quick” but the arrow won’t penetrate. You need to fully draw to do damage and he doesn’t most of the time.
> Hitting something with a bow is a great way to break it.
with a bow of his strength. He is not built. Ulysses would “pop him” at half draw and do more damage then him at full.
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### Author:  [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/73 "2018-06-24T03:13:54Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/115):
>
> with a bow of his strength. He is not built. Ulysses would “pop him” at half draw and do more damage then him at full.
You ever tried to draw a 50lb bow? It’s not something you can “pop”.
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### Author:  [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/74 "2018-06-24T03:15:51Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/113):
>
> Ehhh it’s not really something that can be well modelled ingame. You already basically have that from very high marksmanship and pistol skills if you’re using a pistol. The ability to kick things down/away while wielding any weapon would be super cool though.
Taekwondo does that for you. Force Unarmed as well, but Taekwondo has special moves and blocking.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/111):
>
> its not olypically practical. On a battlefield, where you need to duck out of the way of a swordsman, or zombie arm and pop it in the face real quick, practically without slowing? that would be nice. Then having some effects for using the bow as a weapon? It makes for nice daydreams. Lower damage and accuray, but the ability to fire on the move with less penalty would be a sweet perk.
The issue is that the trick shooting he’s doing requires the bow to have little to no draw strength. It lets you shoot faster, but your range and penetration are worthless in return. In other words, showy and useless in an actual fight.
Hitting things with a bow, the issue is that the bow is fragile. Even if you made a MA that had special martial arts techniques to better hit enemies with bows in melee, the weapon would still get damaged very quickly as the game code stands.
You could make a blade bow or whatever for a mod, but then again, if you do, it’s no different than a bayonet, you can hit with it to your heart’s content without needing an MA.
---
### Author:  [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/75 "2018-06-24T03:17:32Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/117):
>
> Taekwondo does that for you.
I meant like a button to kick something while wielding a rifle or something. Unless Taekwondo works with a weapon equipped?
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### Author:  [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/76 "2018-06-24T03:17:38Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/117):
>
> In other words, showy and useless in an actual fight.
Not if you’re a high elf.
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### Author:  [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/77 "2018-06-24T03:18:48Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/118):
>
> I meant like a button to kick something while wielding a rifle or something. Unless Taekwondo works with a weapon equipped?
Ayup, if you hit things in melee while in Taekwondo, you _always_ kick instead of bashing things with the weapon, regardless of the weapon (or if you’re wielding a heavy frame or steel drum or whatever). You also have full access to all Taekwondo special abilities.
---
### Author:  [@Litppunk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Litppunk)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/78 "2018-06-24T03:19:04Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/114):
>
> What if it’s larped Gun Fu and requires Dweeb profession?
only as a joke.
So… agreed that weaponside is the best way to handle the majority of thrown weapons effects… or all of them?
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/116):
>
> You ever tried to draw a 50lb bow? It’s not something you can “pop”.
Me? no I wouldn’t be able to. A hulk that desired a bow would have much less difficulty.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/117):
>
> Hitting things with a bow, the issue is that the bow is fragile.
the whole point of a bow martial art would be to speedely disengage to a better range. To slow, or disable the target enough to regain the range to more properly full draw. “buying time” techniques. Not smashing.
---
### Author:  [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/79 "2018-06-24T03:20:05Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/120):
>
> Ayup, if you hit things in melee while in Taekwondo, you _always_ kick instead of bashing things with the weapon, regardless of the weapon (or if you’re wielding a heavy frame or steel drum or whatever). You also have full access to all Taekwondo special abilities.
O-O Holy shit, I can’t believe that’s a thing.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/121):
>
> Me? no I wouldn’t be able to. A hulk that desired a bow would have much less difficulty.
A hulk would just have a bigger bow, or hit things in the face instead of bothering with a bow.
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/121):
>
> the whole point of a bow martial art would be to speedely disengage to a better range. To slow, or disable the target enough to regain the range to more properly full draw. “buying time” techniques. Not smashing.
That’s called running away. We have a button for that.
---
### Author:  [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/80 "2018-06-24T03:20:24Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/121):
>
> the whole point of a bow martial art would be to speedely disengage to a better range. To slow, or disable the target enough to regain the range to more properly full draw. “buying time” techniques. Not smashing.
Meh, just take Taekwondo, or make something based on it that has more knockback/stun. Then you have an(other) MA for all ranged weapons.
---
### Author:  [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-martial-arts/15757/81 "2018-06-24T03:22:04Z")
> [@Throwing debate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/121):
>
> So… agreed that weaponside is the best way to handle the majority of thrown weapons effects… or all of them?
Agreed and said so. I’m trying to get martial arts tec into the throwing code so we can use the JSON down the road.
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