# Throwing debate

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [June 18, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729 "2018-06-18T19:24:43Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 10\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 23, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/53 "2018-06-23T18:58:34Z")

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Huh… system ate my post for some reason.

> [@darktoes](#):
>
> No idea, but I assume fairly low skill, since it seemed to be a earlygame concern. Reducing the exp rate for throwing seems like a good fix for that though, especially considering how slowly most other combat skills go up.

That’s why I am concerned that nobody seems to have tried throwing lately, nor has provided any information, neither anecdotical nor methodogical testing, of whether throwing is OP right now or not. All of it seems to be a vague feeling from many months ago.

> [@darktoes](#):
>
> Throwing arts would be even more random. One for each type of throwing weapon? Of which we have all of 3? 4?

I have to agree with this. There are far too few varieties of thrown weapons to justify branching ‘throwing arts’ for each.  
Hell, even the most restrictive armed martial art in the game works for both the tiny wakizashi and the huge nodachi, while the second most restrictive works for both two-handed broadswords and for umbrellas.

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**Author:** ![Sanehatter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@Sanehatter](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Sanehatter)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/63 "2018-06-24T00:20:50Z")

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As much as I agree on the whole throwing thing. Melee skills do need to be fleshed out IMO. Stabbing someone with a knife and a spear are wildly different actions and shouldn’t be in the same skill just because of damage type.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/64 "2018-06-24T21:27:24Z")

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> [@Aabbcc](#):
>
> - throwing had the same range as other ranged weapons, **this has been fixed**.

“Has the same range as other weapons” was not the problem. The problem was simply “throwing weapons are too effective”. To the extent that range was a part of the problem, it is unchanged because throwing ranges have not been changed.

> [@Aabbcc](#):
>
> - throwing skill rose too fast, becoming a top tier option simply through sheer high skill and easily-available ammo.

Correct, also see this [post](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/20414#issuecomment-292764127) in the relevant issue.

> a simple test of spawn a totally average character (all 8 stats, no skills) with a pile of rocks can hold off a sizeable horde of zombies, and rapidly gain throwing skill levels in the process.

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/65 "2018-06-24T21:34:19Z")

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> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> “Has the same range as other weapons” was not the problem. The problem was simply “throwing weapons are too effective”. To the extent that range was a part of the problem, it is unchanged because throwing ranges have not been changed.

Ah, let me clarify: It’s not that throwing range has been reduced, it’s that gun ranges are now much better. I’m pretty sure that back when that issue cropped up, we couldn’t shoot past 10 or so tiles.

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**Author:** ![TheZoneWizard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/thezonewizard/32/1397_2.png) [@TheZoneWizard](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheZoneWizard)\
**Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/66 "2018-06-25T10:59:30Z")

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Pretty sure getting hit with a baseball sized heavy object at 90+ mph would be pretty lethal at least 45% of the time. Remember that baseball players wear helmets for this very reason!

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**Author:** ![Aabbcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@Aabbcc](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aabbcc)\
**Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/67 "2018-06-25T14:27:31Z")

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> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> Correct, also see this [post](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/20414#issuecomment-292764127) in the relevant issue.
> 
> > a simple test of spawn a totally average character (all 8 stats, no skills) with a pile of rocks can hold off a sizeable horde of zombies, and rapidly gain throwing skill levels in the process.

Ok, finally had some time to play some, so I decided to test this.  
Started a character with no mods, 8 in all stats, no perks. Gave it unlimited carrying capacity, rocks, pebbles, throwing knives, throwing axes, and a sling. Saved, then backed up that save.

**Test #1: Rocks**  
Approached a zombie and started throwing. At skill 0, they really couldn’t hit beyond 3~4 squares, but at that range? You hit relatively often, you throw _fast_, and your Skill XP goes up hilariously fast. It’s exceedingly easy to kite a zombie with rocks, even if it took 4~6.  
A handful zombies more and I was looking at skill level 3, could nail them at 6~8, 3 or so for skeletons and children. Could throw 3~4 times before they moved a tile, you even get to hit runner zombies twice from time to time with throwing before they move, and it generally didn’t take much to kill foes unless they were tough or fat.  
Pretty damn strong, can kite a group of half a dozen zombies to death easily, even including a couple specials, but not enough to tackle an actual horde and a brute or a smoker would just wreck you.

**Test #2: Sling**  
Poor start. At lvl 0 it can’t hit the broad side of a barn, and unlike throwing, slings need aiming time. The XP still rose fast, but kitting even a single regular zombie is not guaranteed.  
A little more skill and it’s… respectable. Pretty decent range, but damage is shit and firing time is poor.  
In combination with regular throwing tho, and it’s hella deadly. Throwing can get your skill up fast and deal with close enemies, while the sling lets you pull distant enemies silently and even kill weaker ones at long ranges.

**Test #3: throwing knives**  
Went like rocks, but much better damage. I wouldn’t tackle a horde with these on this straight 8 character, but hell, they’re too good.

**Test #4: Axes**  
Like knives, but heavier and hit like a truck. Basically, a handful of these plus a sling? You’re golden. You’re waaaay better off than with just about any other weapon you could find early.

**Conclusion:**  
Throwing is not ‘take a horde with zero skill and a pile of rocks’ good, but they’re definitely overpowered.  
The biggest factor, I think, is that they have no aiming time while still retaining decent accuracy, so you can bombard foes as if a machinegun even from skill 0. This translates into very fast and very easy leveling of the skill with how easy it is to kite foes.

**Suggestions:**

- Give the skill xp code for it a second look
- Either make throwing slower, or give them some aiming time. It’s fine to throw fast at higher level, it’s not fine to turn zombies into pincushions before they can move at Skill 0.

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**Author:** ![mlangsdorf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mlangsdorf/32/2462_2.png) [@mlangsdorf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mlangsdorf)\
**Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/68 "2018-06-25T17:58:45Z")

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One of the big advantages to throwing is that you can throw quickly, even if your arms are full. Fighting off a horde with a fencing and a rapier and there’s a spitter approaching? No problem, just chuck some rocks at it. Don’t have to drop your weapon, don’t have to pick it back up again, you can just throw rocks while performing fencing counters against anything that attacks you.

But if you use an actual ranged weapon, you have to drop or sheath the rapier, draw or pick up the ranged weapon, aim, attack, and then change back to your rapier (dropping or holstering the ranged weapon in the process).

It gives throwing a huge benefit over other ranged attacks.

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**Author:** ![Mantar](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mantar/32/42_2.png) [@Mantar](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mantar)\
**Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/69 "2018-06-26T00:25:03Z")

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Yeah, the wikipedia page is enlightening:

> **[Hit by pitch | Dangers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_by_pitch#Dangers)**
>
> One major league player died as a result of being struck by a pitch: Ray Chapman of the Cleveland Indians was hit in the head by Carl Mays on August 16, 1920, and died the next morning.
> Serious injuries may result from being hit by a pitch, even when wearing a helmet. On August 18, 1967, Red Sox batter Tony Conigliaro was hit almost directly in the left eye by a fastball thrown by Jack Hamilton of the California Angels. His cheekbone was shattered; he nearly lost the sight of the eye, was unable...

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**Author:** ![Mantar](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mantar/32/42_2.png) [@Mantar](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mantar)\
**Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/70 "2018-06-26T00:29:56Z")

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Adding some aim time (at least a windup) to throwing would definitely be warrented. The rate of fire is downright silly, at least for a starting character with no skill, bionics or mutations.

I don’t think throwing knives and axes are too good, though. Good, but not unusually so. After dozens of characters I’ve been lucky to find a set of three or so, and usually when I wanted a throwing-based character I had to set up a forge and make my own because sooner or later you lose a couple. For what are basically end-game throwing weapon gear, they’re fine, IMO.

Plus there’s something sweet about strapping a bunch of throwing knives to your chest and stepping out against a horde to reenact Judas Priest’s The Sentinel.

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**Author:** ![mlangsdorf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mlangsdorf/32/2462_2.png) [@mlangsdorf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mlangsdorf)\
**Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/throwing-debate/15729/71 "2018-06-26T17:59:56Z")

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I agree that throwing knives and throwing axes are probably balanced - they’re a pain to get, they’re relatively bulky and heavy, etc. Whereas rocks and throwing sticks are plentiful and ridiculously effective. They’re actually effective enough that even my high skill throwing characters have generally stuck with rocks and sticks, even when knives were available, because replacing rocks takes about two seconds and replacing lost knives is a hassle.

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