# The current state of ammunition

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [July 1, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969 "2015-07-01T17:14:54Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![Zaweri\_Runewright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/5e9695/32.png) [@Zaweri\_Runewright](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zaweri_Runewright)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/61 "2015-07-14T23:46:37Z")

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> [@SteelBlueWolf](#):
>
> -Another point is the labeling and description of ammunition. In my opinion it should be assumed to be FMJ unless stated otherwise, especially for standard military rounds. -

I do believe I added the FMJ ammo into the game, and I also do believe that I changed every military ammo recipe to require copper tubing for the jacket (or .22 casings for 5.56mm). I don’t see a problem here, especially since most home-reloaded bullets are solid lead or a lead/tin alloy.

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**Author:** ![SteelBlueWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SteelBlueWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SteelBlueWolf)\
**Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/62 "2015-07-15T15:06:19Z")

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Rifle rounds are done now.

> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/12876>

Next up is handgun rounds.

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**Author:** ![mwswimmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@mwswimmer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mwswimmer)\
**Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/63 "2015-07-16T21:06:53Z")

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I have been lurking here not posting for a while… 7.62 is a harder hitting round able to plow through obstacle and still hit its target with a reasonable punch. It is a heavier bullet with more recoil and less accurate. .556 is the standard round for the military, used in assault rifles and squad automated weapons. The .556 is lighter and more accurate but has the tendency to tumble when hitting something. In all honesty i much prefer a 7.62 round to the tiny .556 (basically a jumped up .22).

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/64 "2015-07-16T21:18:25Z")

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Now if only we had a Russian poster with a similar background to also help with balancing suggestions for how 5.45mm fits in relative to those, and for how 9x18mm should be relative to 9x19mm.

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**Author:** ![Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a88e57/32.png) [@Zero](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zero)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/65 "2015-07-17T13:59:20Z")

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[quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:61, topic:9969”].22 casings for 5.56mm[/quote]That doesn’t make sense to me.

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**Author:** ![Kadian](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kadian/32/214_2.png) [@Kadian](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kadian)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/66 "2015-07-17T14:13:51Z")

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> [@Zero](#):
>
> [quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:61, topic:9969”].22 casings for 5.56mm[/quote]That doesn’t make sense to me.

I THINK he meant .223, which is essentially the same round? that would make sense.

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**Author:** ![Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a88e57/32.png) [@Zero](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zero)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/67 "2015-07-17T14:23:36Z")

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That would make more sense.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/68 "2015-07-17T15:06:57Z")

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> [@Zero](#):
>
> [quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:61, topic:9969”].22 casings for 5.56mm[/quote]That doesn’t make sense to me.

I noticed that too, and assumed it was an error. It’s actually an option to use them for jacketing material, for some reason.

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**Author:** ![Kadian](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kadian/32/214_2.png) [@Kadian](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kadian)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/69 "2015-07-17T15:33:26Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> [quote=“Zero, post:65, topic:9969”][quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:61, topic:9969”].22 casings for 5.56mm[/quote]That doesn’t make sense to me.

I noticed that too, and assumed it was an error. It’s actually an option to use them for jacketing material, for some reason.[/quote]

ah, as jacketing material, instead of copper tubes? I thought they meant as Casing.

It’s perfectly fine to use .22 casings as material for jacketing. .22 are apparently usually copper-plated. And…rarely brass plated apparently? not sure on that one.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/70 "2015-07-17T15:36:10Z")

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Because Zaweri noticed it’s something people actually do [http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=171714](http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=171714) and added it to the game.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/71 "2015-07-17T15:43:16Z")

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> [@Kevin Granade](#):
>
> Because Zaweri noticed it’s something people actually do [Making .223 60gr bullets with 22lr brass jackets - very interesting video | Survivalist Forum](http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=171714) and added it to the game.

Ah, I see. Though as I (as well as Zero, now) can attest, it makes most people take one look at “can be used to make…” and assume it’s a recipe typo. 22\_casing, 223\_casing…

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**Author:** ![SteelBlueWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SteelBlueWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SteelBlueWolf)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/72 "2015-07-17T15:47:09Z")

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What is the rationale behind handmade rounds having lower stats than factory manufactured ones?

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**Author:** ![Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a88e57/32.png) [@Zero](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zero)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/73 "2015-07-17T15:52:58Z")

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Ah, that makes perfect sense for home-jacketing bullets.

@SteelBlueWolf: I assume that with lower quality controls in the apocalypse factory ammo would perform more reliably.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/74 "2015-07-17T15:57:54Z")

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Exactly. Though you’d think that if you followed the reloading manuals exactly, so long as you had the right tools you could replicate the stats of the basic factory loads.

Then again, it could also be because we’re taking raw lead and such, and may or may not have bullet molds for what we’re reloading for. Though that’s more likely just an abstraction. XP

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**Author:** ![SteelBlueWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SteelBlueWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SteelBlueWolf)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/75 "2015-07-17T16:46:18Z")

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> you'd think that if you followed the reloading manuals exactly, so long as you had the right tools you could replicate the stats of the basic factory loads.

That's what I was thinking. At the fabrication level it takes to reload you would probably be able to get it right for normal ammunition. The only potentially problematic factor is the propellant. "Gunpowder" isn't very descriptive, and judging from the materials needed to craft it the explosive it represents is black powder which is nowhere near as effective as modern single-base smokeless powder. Should this be changed?

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/76 "2015-07-17T16:53:47Z")

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[quote=“SteelBlueWolf, post:75, topic:9969”]

> you’d think that if you followed the reloading manuals exactly, so long as you had the right tools you could replicate the stats of the basic factory loads.

  
That’s what I was thinking. At the fabrication level it takes to reload you would probably be able to get it right for normal ammunition. The only potentially problematic factor is the propellant. “Gunpowder” isn’t very descriptive, and judging from the materials needed to craft it the explosive it represents is black powder which is nowhere near as effective as modern single-base smokeless powder. Should this be changed?[/quote]

Blackpowder is already a thing. The recipe for modern cartridge gunpowder did use more modern ingredients, up until they apparently made it uncraftable.

Even then there are different formulations of smokeless powder, but I would assume most reloading manuals specificy the required type.

It’s when you experiment with oddball rounds and such that the quality should be going through the floor.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/77 "2015-07-18T03:06:39Z")

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The only source for modern gunpowder is finding it or harvesting it from existing rounds. If you want to start that discussion up again, please use the search feature and read the dozens of pages of discussion about it we’ve already had first.

As for the handloads, the rationale is tolerances, under the assumption that a typical factory load is going to be more consistent than a typical handload.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/78 "2015-07-18T03:12:40Z")

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Aye, I’m fine with modern gunpowder not being craftable. If anything I wish we could use black powder for the various cartrdges that predate the advent of modern powder. But adding that would require NOT letting those loads be usable in semi-auto firearms, so add that to the list of things ammo type overlap would allow.

I will note that most texts I’ve read pertaining to handloading stress that being consistent about your loads is more a matter of “not having the gun blow up in your face” rather than just getting better accuracy. Your suggestions regarding hazardous failures when crafting, experimentation, etc could obviously be useful for this. X3

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**Author:** ![SteelBlueWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SteelBlueWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SteelBlueWolf)\
**Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 9:16am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/79 "2015-07-21T09:16:06Z")

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> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/12988>

Working on pistol rounds and the rifle rounds I missed last time.

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**Author:** ![Sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Sunshine](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Sunshine)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:23am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/80 "2015-07-24T07:23:36Z")

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[quote=“SteelBlueWolf, post:79, topic:9969”][https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/12988](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/12988)

Working on pistol rounds and the rifle rounds I missed last time.[/quote]

You could also add .357 magnum to the .38 family. It seems strange that it’s not in there when it’s such a common round.

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