# The current state of ammunition

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [July 1, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969 "2015-07-01T17:14:54Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Artyom177](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Artyom177](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Artyom177)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/41 "2015-07-10T01:46:08Z")

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Well I could see the penetration going up with 5.56 but remember, thanks to the Geneva conviction all military ammo is ball type. Meaning that the ammo is slightly more likely to wound instead of outright decimate a person. 5.56 is steel core, but compared to the .223? The .223 would have a higher damage rating then the 5.56 because of its lead core meaning it tumbles and breaks apart on impact. Though the 5.56 has a higher velocity; which means better armor penetration further supporting Miloch’s claim. It doesn’t deal a lot of damage. I look up a lot about this stuff but I might be wrong about some things; So please, be gentle.

And I would love to see a Ballistics system Incorporated into Cata for a number of reasons. Mostly to make the .22 guns not be such damage dealers. AND to see the ability for large caliber guns to penetrate thru targets into other enemies behind them. That would be epic 😃

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/42 "2015-07-10T02:04:49Z")

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Now if only we knew the terminal ballistics on 120mm shells… owo

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/43 "2015-07-10T04:02:51Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> Now if only we knew the terminal ballistics on 120mm shells… owo

If I had to guess I’d say  
(•_•)  
( •_•)\>⌐■-■  
(⌐■\_■)  
TERMINAL

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/44 "2015-07-10T04:11:22Z")

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Or, well…see below.

Screenshot:

![](http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz27/Chaosvolt/hunting%20with%20tanks_zpsqqhaow9z.png)

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**Author:** ![Shopkeeper](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/shopkeeper/32/453_2.png) [@Shopkeeper](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Shopkeeper)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/45 "2015-07-10T04:20:19Z")

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It killed that wolf so hard it died twice… I’m impressed.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/46 "2015-07-10T04:36:58Z")

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Woah, I just noticed that. There were other wolves too, so I must’ve nailed one and caught a second in the blast.

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**Author:** ![Artyom177](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Artyom177](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Artyom177)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/47 "2015-07-10T21:50:42Z")

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Jesus Christ what the hell did you use?

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/48 "2015-07-10T22:54:42Z")

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> [@Artyom177](#):
>
> Jesus Christ what the hell did you use?

Huehuehue. Basically I made a vehicle part using the tankbot main gun.

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**Author:** ![Artyom177](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Artyom177](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Artyom177)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/49 "2015-07-11T01:32:04Z")

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Tank bots are bullshit…

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/50 "2015-07-11T01:34:59Z")

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Tell that to the tankbot I wound up running over in an atomic mini-tank I’d devised. owo

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**Author:** ![Artyom177](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Artyom177](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Artyom177)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/51 "2015-07-11T03:27:09Z")

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I say that because because they have fucking flamethrowers… FLAMETHROWERS! Along with a 120mm SUPER CANNON! Do you need that much power in a 1x1 square?

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/52 "2015-07-11T03:34:26Z")

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It would be more reasonable if multi-tile monsters was a thing.

But yeah, little jackass shot one of my view cameras off. I was TRYING to get a screenshot of killing it in a tank of my own, ideally I wanted to blast it point-blank with my main gun. I kept getting near-misses that merely wounded it, and right as I was set on a collision course with it, I remembered I had to reload the main gun, and the amount of time it took to dump 5 rounds into its autoloader was enough time for my tank to close the distance and…crunch.

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**Author:** ![Artyom177](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Artyom177](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Artyom177)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/53 "2015-07-11T16:03:18Z")

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![](http://www.aaanything.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/700x466xtank_excelsior-700x466.jpg.pagespeed.ic.2niIDzD7do.jpg)

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/54 "2015-07-11T16:32:45Z")

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Speaking of rampaging tankbots, another one got the better of me in a different tank-on-tank experiment.

[spoiler]Cataclysm - Dark Days Ahead version ee5e06f memorial file

In memory of: Bork  
"In Soviet Russia tank drives you"

He was a Survivalist when the apocalypse began.  
He died on Spring of year 1, day 1, at 1:21:00 PM.  
He was killed in a field in the wilderness.

Cash on hand: $0

Final HP:  
Head: 0/90  
Torso: 26/90  
L Arm: 47/90  
R Arm: 25/90  
L Leg: 35/90  
R Leg: 19/90

Final Stats:  
Str 10 Dex 10 Int 8 Per 8  
Base Stats:  
Str 10 Dex 10 Int 8 Per 8

Final Messages:  
1:05:48 PM You hit the the zombie child for 113 damage.1  
1:05:48 PM The zombie child dies!1  
1:05:54 PM You fumble with the Main Battle Tank’s controls.1  
1:06:06 PM You let go of the controls.1  
1:06:06 PM You start running.1  
1:06:06 PM That part of the vehicle is currently unsafe.1  
1:06:06 PM Moving past this heavy duty frame is slow!1  
1:06:30 PM Moving past this heavy duty frame is slow!1  
1:06:54 PM Moving past this heavy duty frame is slow!1  
1:07:06 PM The zombie dies!1  
1:07:18 PM The fat zombie dies!1  
1:07:18 PM You’re caught in the explosion!1  
1:07:18 PM Your || boonie hat (fits) is ripped!1  
1:07:18 PM You’re caught in the explosion!2  
1:07:18 PM Your || blazer (fits) is torn!1  
1:07:18 PM The Main Battle Tank’s diesel tank is destroyed!1  
1:07:18 PM You burn your legs and feet!1  
1:07:18 PM You’re caught in the explosion!1  
1:07:18 PM Your || backpack is ripped!1  
1:07:18 PM Your |\ boonie hat (fits) is ripped further!1

Kills:  
v - 1 crow  
D - 1 deer  
d - 1 skeletal dog  
d - 1 fox  
r - 3 groundhogs  
M - 1 moose  
. - 2 shrews  
r - 1 squirrel  
m - 1 weasel  
Z - 18 zombies  
z - 10 zombie children  
Z - 3 zombie cops  
Z - 1 fat zombie  
Z - 1 hazmat zombie  
Total kills: 45

Skills:  
bartering: 0 (0%)  
computers: 0 (0%)  
construction: 0 (0%)  
cooking: 2 (0%)  
driving: 3 (39%)  
electronics: 0 (0%)  
fabrication: 2 (0%)  
first aid: 2 (0%)  
mechanics: 0 (0%)  
speaking: 0 (0%)  
survival: 4 (0%)  
swimming: 2 (0%)  
tailoring: 0 (0%)  
trapping: 2 (0%)  
archery: 0 (0%)  
bashing weapons: 0 (0%)  
cutting weapons: 0 (0%)  
dodging: 0 (0%)  
marksmanship: 3 (65%)  
launchers: 3 (29%)  
melee: 0 (3%)  
piercing weapons: 0 (0%)  
throwing: 0 (0%)  
unarmed combat: 0 (2%)  
handguns: 0 (0%)  
rifles: 1 (73%)  
shotguns: 0 (0%)  
submachine guns: 0 (0%)

Traits:  
Truth Teller  
Psychopath  
Addictive Personality  
Optimist  
Heavy Sleeper  
Weak Stomach  
Disease Resistant  
Forgetful  
Lightweight  
Night Vision  
Trigger Happy  
Outdoorsman  
Ugly  
(None)

Ongoing Effects:  
(None)

Bionics:  
No bionics were installed.  
Power: 0/0

Weapon:  
- none

Equipment:  
a - boxer shorts (fits)  
c - cargo shorts (fits)  
d - pair of boots (fits)  
e - boonie hat (fits)  
f - blazer (fits)  
h - pair of socks (fits)  
i - backpack  
m - plastic canteen  
n - sheath (fits)  
l - emergency jacket  
g - pair of ear plugs

Inventory:  
j - survival knife  
b - flashlight (off) (100)  
k - lighter (100)

Lifetime Stats  
Distance walked: 155 squares  
Damage taken: 323 damage  
Damage healed: 0 damage  
Headshots: 0

Game History  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 8:00:00 AM | evac shelter | Bork began their journey into the Cataclysm.  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:18 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:07:24 PM | field | The fuel tank of the Main Battle Tank exploded!  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:21:00 PM | field | Bork was killed.  
| Year 1, Spring 1, 1:21:00 PM | field | Last words: Last words: %s  
[/spoiler]

EDIT: Ahahah. I just now remembered your remark about how annoying the tank drone’s flamethrower is, and what killed me in that memorial file? A tankbot’s flamethrower nope’ing right through my vehicle’s armor, setting off the fuel tanks.

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**Author:** ![SteelBlueWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SteelBlueWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SteelBlueWolf)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/55 "2015-07-14T14:02:55Z")

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What are incendiary rounds meant to be? Tracers? HEI rounds?

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/56 "2015-07-14T15:12:00Z")

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> [@SteelBlueWolf](#):
>
> What are incendiary rounds meant to be? Tracers? HEI rounds?

Designed mainly to burn things and penetrate armor. What what I gather, the incendiary effect is supposed to add a little extra destructive effect against armor, though presumably it also gives it the anti-material uses that other incendiary munitions have.

Sadly we don’t have proper tracer rounds yet, since they don’t quite serve the purpose that they do in real life, assisting in observation of fire. Reduced dispersion would work I guess, but it’d have no effect on follow-up shots. Plus we don’t have a way to mix ammunition so you get that mix of regular ammo and tracers.

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**Author:** ![Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a88e57/32.png) [@Zero](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zero)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/57 "2015-07-14T18:18:48Z")

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You could model it as being already interleaved 1 in 5 tracer rounds with reduced dispersion.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SteelBlueWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@SteelBlueWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SteelBlueWolf)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/58 "2015-07-14T21:18:56Z")

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Good idea Zero. I’ll do that.

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**Author:** ![Funk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d07c76/32.png) [@Funk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Funk)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/59 "2015-07-14T21:42:56Z")

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> [@Artyom177](#):
>
> Well I could see the penetration going up with 5.56 but remember, thanks to the Geneva conviction all military ammo is ball type.

In military nomenclature “Ball” is just full metal jacketed rounds.

While the Hague Convention bans “The use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.”, it does not demand the use of jacketed bullets.

Hence 5.56 fragments and 5.45 yaws doing a double flip.

The main reason bullets have a steel cores is cost lead is costly.  
The second is to remove the nasty lead residue from your training area.

Armor-piercing bullets tend to have harder cores made from tungsten carbide, special alloys or depleted uranium.

Now under US law a bullet is armor piercing and thus restricted if the core is made from: tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.  
Hence all the cheap ex chinese 7.62mm ammo is baned as it steel cored.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/the-current-state-of-ammunition/9969/60 "2015-07-14T22:15:51Z")

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> [@Zero](#):
>
> You could model it as being already interleaved 1 in 5 tracer rounds with reduced dispersion.

We could have tracer rounds by default, and FMJ rounds, and a 0-level recipe to mix them at the required ratio. Would be stupid, but a good workaround to the inability to mix ammo.

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