Survivor Suit needs buff

[iceball3]

[quote=“pisskop, post:32, topic:12261”]The survivors honestly dont do that much damage…

what is it 3d7 or thereabouts? That, their faster speed, their armor, and their dodge make them challenging to early game characters who have almost no business attacking them in melee.[/quote]4d6 at 6 melee skill.
How strong they are isn’t the issue.
The issue is that the flavor of the zombie in description, appearance, naming, etc doesn’t adequately reflect it’s stats.

[Coolthulhu]

Your argument doesn’t really work mate. We have Soldier zombies that drop great loot.

One balance fuckup doesn’t mean we’ll be going around fucking up the rest of the balance. “But we already have something bad” is a horrible argument for “so we can fuck it up more”.

Plus, soldier zed drops aren’t anywhere near as game-breaking as an early drop of 100% coverage full-body suit with low encumbrance and enough armor values to stop damage from 90% of zeds.

Survivor zombies were dropping survivor gear before. The result was that gun basements were more useful for the dudes inside than the guns. Granted, this was while the survivor gear was instant-win tier, but it’s still significantly above regular “wilderness” drops.

Possible drops to include: leather armor, armored vests, leather trenchcoats, gambesons, weaker medieval weapons (maces), survivor-grade weaponry
Won’t happen: armor with “survivor” in name and 100% coverage

[survivornaginata]

survivor zombies dropping more of survivor weapons like makeshift glives.macuitl,quarterstuff, wooden tonfa,homewrecker,steel/copper spear …would be most welcome.
also greater chance of usefull tools and things like oil/gasoline lamps,fire drills,electric firestartres,makeshift welder would also fit theme.

[pisskop]

[quote=“survivornaginata, post:35, topic:12261”]survivor zombies dropping more of survivor weapons like makeshift glives.macuitl,quarterstuff, wooden tonfa,homewrecker,steel/copper spear …would be most welcome.
also greater chance of usefull tools and things like oil/gasoline lamps,fire drills,electric firestartres,makeshift welder would also fit theme.[/quote]this i do agree with, but with the covet that theybe small eniugh to be reasonably cartied on person. no glaives or spears.

maybe adding survivor stashes or homes

[survivornaginata]

[quote=“pisskop, post:36, topic:12261”][quote=“survivornaginata, post:35, topic:12261”]survivor zombies dropping more of survivor weapons like makeshift glives.macuitl,quarterstuff, wooden tonfa,homewrecker,steel/copper spear …would be most welcome.
also greater chance of usefull tools and things like oil/gasoline lamps,fire drills,electric firestartres,makeshift welder would also fit theme.[/quote]this i do agree with, but with the covet that theybe small eniugh to be reasonably cartied on person. no glaives or spears.[/quote]
while i coud agree with this on point of realism we have fire axes,sledgehammers,alunimium kegs as drops… i personally dont care much for spears and makeshift glaive although i doubt that many people use makeshift glaive and copper spear so having them in loot would be chance to get asquainted with them in early game.

[Pandromidal]

After further investigation using a survivor suit is a bad idea at the momment, you are much better off using a tailoring kit to add armor to a light survivor suit, or better yet wearing two light survivor suits (when cold enough of course).

[ZoneWizard]

[quote=“ZoneWizard, post:31, topic:12261”]Your argument doesn’t really work mate. We have Soldier zombies that drop great loot.

One balance fuckup doesn’t mean we’ll be going around fucking up the rest of the balance. “But we already have something bad” is a horrible argument for “so we can fuck it up more”.

Plus, soldier zed drops aren’t anywhere near as game-breaking as an early drop of 100% coverage full-body suit with low encumbrance and enough armor values to stop damage from 90% of zeds.

Survivor zombies were dropping survivor gear before. The result was that gun basements were more useful for the dudes inside than the guns. Granted, this was while the survivor gear was instant-win tier, but it’s still significantly above regular “wilderness” drops.

Possible drops to include: leather armor, armored vests, leather trenchcoats, gambesons, weaker medieval weapons (maces), survivor-grade weaponry
Won’t happen: armor with “survivor” in name and 100% coverage[/quote]

Having killed well over 100 survivor zeds with ELITE loot turned back on. I have yet to see even 1 item you just described. So your pinata idea in pretty much my entire 43 day latest game is rather flawed from my perspective. I tend to find filthy items, usually broken beyond my early repair level. Plus having 100% coverage does not make for a reasonable option for a buff. I rather sprint with 30% than die with 100% coverage. I know it is all different styles of playing. But truly, as of 5243 experimental. The top loot from these zeds, REALLY just do not drop. Repeated play through with the top loot available doesn’t spawn them at the unbalancing status you seem to think. I mean I’m knocking them off left and right and I’ve only seen 3 rare items…of which I wouldn’t even pick up because being broken and filthy.

I’m not arguing just to be a dick. I play the game like 4-6 hours a session 4 days a week. I really do not see this balance you suggest.

[Coolthulhu]

Having killed well over 100 survivor zeds with ELITE loot turned back on.

The gear I listed wasn’t supposed to be current drop tables, just potential ones if someone wants surv zeds to drop better stuff.

[ZoneWizard]

So the those items you mention are not apart of turning on Elite loot? (would explain why I have not found them).

In any event. While I have no problem at all with people playing a Tank character. To clarify my perspective, I prefer light armor and being able to not have debuffs via my encumbrance. I Know not everyone plays this way. But I don’t like having the assumption that everyone SHOULD play a tank character. I do not see survivor armor as anything I would ever use even not Filthy or with 100% coverage. It impedes so much as to be useless to me and my play style. Making a tank character end up like the Michelin Man(tire cartoon) lol

This reminds me of the argument with Kevin some months ago. I was debating with people about what to do about tailing upgrades. While I still want those upgrades to able to be open to modification, the big part was my conclusion of the debate that I came to. Which is Soft leather and Hard leather as options for upgrades and creation of new items.

I hate being stuck with either almost no armor at all or playing a tank. As it stands there are few options. I truly don’t care about 100% coverage as long as it has 30% coverage with low encumbrance and is light. Because in such a case, I could be agile and quick while having reasonable volume and SOME armor with optional light upgrades that don’t encumber either.

Rather big issue for me. The idea of unbalance would be mitigated still by such things as “Filthy” items and damage to said items. Plus the tailoring skill levels needed to just fix stuff or make them. It would add realism and not force tank end game gear as the only thing to use.

Hope this wall gets read because I would not have written it if I wasn’t eager to see the game improved in many aspects. Please don’t assume I’m just being selfish, I really respect many other folks ideas as well. Hence discussing these ideas on the forum =)

[Coolthulhu]

Rather big issue for me. The idea of unbalance would be mitigated still by such things as “Filthy” items and damage to said items. Plus the tailoring skill levels needed to just fix stuff or make them. It would add realism and not force tank end game gear as the only thing to use.

Filthiness doesn’t work as balancing. Damage to items just ends up making them require repairs, which is essentially just a chance that they are destroyed, which in turn is roughly the same as lowering the drops.

I hate being stuck with either almost no armor at all or playing a tank.

Craft better clothing then. A full set of thick cotton clothing and leather pants is decent light armor, way above “almost no armor” that you’re talking about.

I truly don't care about 100% coverage as long as it has 30% coverage with low encumbrance and is light.

Oh no you don’t. 30% coverage isn’t armor, it’s clothing at best and not even protective clothing at that. No wonder you’re having problems with armor if you’re picking 30% coverage items. Most of the time it’s better to go 90% coverage and 5/5 armor than 50% coverage and 50/50 armor.

I don't like having the assumption that everyone SHOULD play a tank character.

Balancing is done around the best options. When the best option is tanking, it’s the tanking that will get nerfs (by adding more armor piercing attacks to monsters). If the best option is going light, armor values are increased and armor-piercing abilities get nerfed.
Currently the best option is to go light. Something around 20 encumbrance on torso, arms and legs each.

[SpadeDraco]

Anyone who says Survivor Zombies are difficult for a new character has clearly never picked up a reach weapon. Or a gun. Or throwing. Or a martial art. Or a molotov. Or the concept of pulling\kiting\positioning. Yeah, their loot tables suck and could probably use some work, but there’s no way in hell that they need to be dropping some of the best gear in the game, damaged or otherwise.

[ZoneWizard]

Damage is a balance as is filthy. It is off putting to use those items until cleaned which is a few tasks to many for some folks. Damage and in need of repair is off putting because it often requires the skill to craft those items before one can repair them. If you get hit a lot in melee combat it can fall apart. Don’t assume…again, everyone plays the same as you do please.

90% 5/5 is good. 30% was just a light weight example. Nothing I even recall using. I just wanted to express light and easy to use without encumbering me.

Tanking is NOT what I want. I was referring to light armor and tanks both as options being a good thing.

[SpadeDraco]

Would now be a good time to mention that Survivor Armor is totally in direct violation of the design document?

Specifically:

“Found clothing (if it’s just what you need) should be superior to player-created clothing in general.”

Not a whole lot of room for interpretation there.

[pisskop]

i agree. your player made survivor armor is too powerful

[survivornaginata]

[quote=“SpadeDraco, post:45, topic:12261”]Would now be a good time to mention that Survivor Armor is totally in direct violation of the design document?

Specifically:

“Found clothing (if it’s just what you need) should be superior to player-created clothing in general.”

Not a whole lot of room for interpretation there.[/quote]
but there is room for itnerpretation there as this imo concerns sewed ordinary clothing done with needle-self made duster from rags would be expected to be inferior to factory made duster where it was done with proffesional tailors who have better materials/equipment.
survivor suit is combination of regular clothing items i one better not self sewed from bunch of rags and as op said it offers less protection than items spent to make it though it have other advantages which makje it better.

[Sheb]

Nah, the intent is that scavenging should be better than crafting. Frankly, military gear should always be the best IMO.

[Shopkeeper]

I think there’s a middle ground here; Modern body armor sacrifices limb protection for mobility, since armor thick enough to stop bullets greatly inhibits movement of the arms and legs. While survivor gear is hand tailored to give substantial coverage and respectable protection against the myriad hazards of a post-apocalyptic world. In exchange for offering less protection then it’s pre-cataclysm counterparts survivor gear should give additional coverage (like it already does) so it offers more reliable protection overall.

But we shouldn’t just go nerfing everything without something to compensate, carrots and sticks and all that…

My idea, include a new higher tier of survivor armor made using superalloy. The MBR vest (superalloy) offers a similar level of protection but far superior weight and encumbrance ratio compared with the MBR vest (steel plating). But superalloy isn’t used in literally anything else. Why not mesh the requirement of having to scavenge for a rare non-craftable resource with needing the skill of a tailor and master fabricator to create armor that offers the best of both worlds as a reward?

[Coolthulhu]

But we shouldn’t just go nerfing everything without something to compensate, carrots and sticks and all that…

Only the things out of line, like survivor suit was.
Nowadays it’s survivor suit vs. melee threats, factory made kevlar vs. firearms.
Though the factory made armor could get improved coverage (on torso), since suits still beat it against 9mm bursts.

[Zilenan91]

The Heavy Survivor Suit in particular is probably overpowered. It makes you invulnerable to most bullets in the game. If you pad it with Kevlar it makes you invulnerable to all bullets in the game.

[TheWumpus]

No it really doesn’t. Survivor gear was completely broken. A heavy survivor outfit was better than power armor. A regular survivor outfit was damn near as good as the Rivtech power suit (which required plutonium to function).

However, if you really HAVE to have survivor armor that wasn’t “nerfed”, here ya go.

1. Fire up the json editor (don’t have one? I’ve been using this for a year without issue: http://tomeko.net/software/JSONedit/)
2. Open your cataclysm folder
3. Open Data\json\items\armor.json
4. Find whatever gear you want to modify (the CTRL+F or your OS equivalent is handy for this)
5. Change it to whatever value you want.

I myself made socks of holding for moving loot around.