# Surgical Removal of Extra Mutated Parts

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [November 27, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648 "2018-11-27T23:42:04Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/1 "2018-11-27T23:42:04Z")

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![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/cataclysmdda/original/2X/1/1894dbe353e70e00fbf4ea28f9c70992b638cfe2.jpeg)  
Oh no! You have been exposed to radiation, and a mutated hand has grown out of your stomach! What is the best course of treatment?

Sure, you could take a hit of purifier serum, but you might lose one of your useful mutations, or might not have any. So why take the risk of losing your superhuman abilities just to get rid of that wretched mutated tail or horns, when the most obvious option is available: cut it off. Either use a bone saw and anesthetic, or go jump in an autodoc and program it to amputate your extraneous limb or other mutated feature.

This would obviously not work to remove most mutations, but would be useful to remove some of the more noticeable ones, like tails, horns, etc. If cybernetic prosthetics ever get implemented, amputation and replacement of significantly mutated appendages (ex: tentacle legs) would be possible.

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**Author:** ![TheMurderUnicorn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themurderunicorn/32/5706_2.png) [@TheMurderUnicorn](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMurderUnicorn)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/2 "2018-11-27T23:51:56Z")

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> [@nameless\_survivor](#):
>
> What is the best course of treatment?

I couldn’t find a screenshot, but iirc, the answer to that question was ‘A bullet to the brain’.

Feel free to press ‘Q’ and take action.

Additionally, I do feel that a targetable alternative to purifier (whether that be a different substance or a surgery) would be a nice higher-tier (and sufficiently rare) option to add to the game. I don’t know what it would do to balance, but afaik purifier is RNG. I’d like there to be something that, at a cost (be that actual bartering or through rarity) allows you to remove a single mutation.

However, I also feel that this has probably been suggested in some form before, and I bet there’s a good reason why they’ve made things the way they are.

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/3 "2018-11-27T23:56:10Z")

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Re. targeted alternative to purifier

I actually have been thinking about the option of getting scientist party member NPCs to make more specific, rare mutagens/purifiers after a quest. It’s down the road a ways and my concept would require a lot of other stuff in between, but I think this would capture the idea that ‘purifier’ is a relatively blunt instrument, but perhaps with a full lab and a PhD in biochemistry, you might be able to make something more precise.

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/4 "2018-11-28T00:06:41Z")

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> [@TheMurderUnicorn](#):
>
> I couldn’t find a screenshot, but iirc, the answer to that question was ‘A bullet to the brain’.

That was one of the possible answers. The options were:

A bullet to the brain  
Prayer  
Removal with a precision laser  
High doses of anti-mutagen

I wouldn’t recommend prayer or suicide.

> [@TheMurderUnicorn](#):
>
> However, I also feel that this has probably been suggested in some form before, and I bet there’s a good reason why they’ve made things the way they are.

Maybe, but if so I’d be wiling to bet that reason is “devs haven’t gotten around to implementing it yet”.

This is a very realistic and simple option, and they seem to like that kind of thing.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/5 "2018-11-28T00:46:05Z")

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> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/25019>

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/6 "2018-11-28T00:55:42Z")

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That looks like it would be really useful for getting rid of some of the nastier mutations, and reducing your chances of losing everything good. Haven’t seen one of them yet.

But it would still be nice to take a hacksaw to that stupid tail, or a bench grinder to some horns, hellboy style.

Maybe you could still count as “having” the mutation even if you cut it off, but for purposes of NPC mutant detection or armor fit it would be negated. Add some ugliness points for scarring maybe.

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/7 "2018-11-28T02:12:32Z")

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When you put it like that, that makes it sound fun to enable some gruesome mutation removal.

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/8 "2018-11-28T02:54:48Z")

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Just now found my first purifier smart shot. I don’t have anything negative worth risking my prime mutations on though, worst I’ve got is weakness, so I’m going to save it in case I develop the disintegration mutation.

> [@Erk](#):
>
> When you put it like that, that makes it sound fun to enable some gruesome mutation removal.

Of course amputating your own body parts isn’t an easy thing. You ever carved a wart out of your hand with a pocket knife? I have, and trust me when I say that is NOT fun. So I would imagine having to actually sever something major or otherwise mutilate yourself would be a thousand times worse.

You would also likely suffer major ongoing pain (your missing tail hurts!)  
and maybe some depression (you miss your tail!)

But it probably beats being lynched by that mob of survivors, or a hostile security system classifying you as a test subject or alien lifeform or something.

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/9 "2018-11-28T03:17:14Z")

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I’ve actually done a number of self-excisions, but I’m a weird one to ask since I’m trained in that sort of thing and have easy access to scalpels and freezing materials

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**Author:** ![TheKobold](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/thekobold/32/513_2.png) [@TheKobold](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheKobold)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/10 "2018-11-28T04:13:10Z")

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Seems like bleed out and infection would be big risks while trying to amputate your mutated limbs.

Don’t we technically amputate an arm to put on the arm laser… I forget its name.

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/11 "2018-11-28T06:11:31Z")

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Shit, no scalpels or freezing for me, just a plantar wart and a sterilized pocket knife. It was really deep, getting it all out took forever and hurt like a bitch. I’ve still got a faint little crater in one of my fingers to this day.

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**Author:** ![TheMurderUnicorn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/themurderunicorn/32/5706_2.png) [@TheMurderUnicorn](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheMurderUnicorn)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:56am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/12 "2018-11-28T09:56:16Z")

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Uh. Shouldn’t have done that. o\_o

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 10:02am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/13 "2018-11-28T10:02:06Z")

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> [@TheKobold](#):
>
> Don’t we technically amputate an arm to put on the arm laser… I forget its name.

Yeah the fusion blaster arm cbm amputates the right arm.

> [@TheMurderUnicorn](#):
>
> Uh. Shouldn’t have done that. o\_o

Trust me, I didn’t like the idea either, but there was no other alternative at the time. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and do what must be done. I heated and poured alcohol on the knife, amd kept the wound carefully sterilized and bandaged afterward, so it was fine, but the entire experience was extremely unpleasant.

Stories of self surgery aside, performing some degree of amputation/extraneous feature removal would by necessity not be an easy or pretty thing, and carry consequences, but I would argue it should be an option.

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/14 "2018-11-28T19:21:23Z")

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Looking at it from a nitty gritty perspective, I can see how items could be set up to remove one trait and replace it with another… But how would this interact with purifier? If you cut off your extra limb and get the “Phantom limb pain” mutation in return, do we let that be purifiable? Or do you now have a horrible scar for good? What if you cut off an unpurifiable mutation?

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/15 "2018-11-28T19:52:03Z")

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> [@Erk](#):
>
> But how would this interact with purifier? If you cut off your extra limb and get the “Phantom limb pain” mutation in return, do we let that be purifiable?

You would lose the mutation itself, the gene coding saying you should have that part, the “trait”, but the side effects of its removal, such as scarring would be _permanent_ unless you got say, the pretty mutation which might get rid of scarring.

Phantom limb pain would go away if the limb comes back, is replaced with a sophisticated prosthetic, or the mutation is removed (the nerves changed when your genes changed).

Ex: your tentacle legs are amputated and replaced with cybernetic prosthetics. The phantom pain would disappear because the brain is now able to receive input it was missing.

> [@Erk](#):
>
> What if you cut off an unpurifiable mutation?

If you did cut off an unpurifiable mutation, it is still only a physical change, your genes still have the mutation. No getting out of it that way.

Are there any unpurifiable limb or extraneous mutations that aren’t vital or inaccessible? I was thinking this would be for small or extra stuff like claws, horns, tails, etc. Unless prosthetic limbs get implemented, cutting off those hooves or tentacle legs would not be possible.

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**Author:** ![MarkJerue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@MarkJerue](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/MarkJerue)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/16 "2018-11-28T20:46:00Z")

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I’m a random pleb but cutting off extra limbs with hacksaws sounds like a FUN way to fix your problems. Be that permanently or “permanently.”

Because I don’t think an autodoc is programmed to know how to remove extra limbs… and doing surgery on yourself might be rather… shall we say painful. And difficult. And really difficult when you are at 200ish pain, and hardly know what an antiseptic is.

Ooooooh, the possibilities of death are already enticing!

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/17 "2018-11-28T21:25:31Z")

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> [@MarkJerue](#):
>
> Because I don’t think an autodoc is programmed to know how to remove extra limbs

An autodoc is able to install a fusion blaster arm CBM, it knows how to perform amputations. Also, its supposed to be a robotic surgery unit, amputations are a surgical procedure which would definitely be part of its repertoire, like any human surgeon. You might have to tweak the routine parameters a bit to get exactly what you want cut off, but I don’t see that as being unlikely. An automated surgeon program would almost certainly be designed to allow the input of custom procedures and be able to adapt to different patients. You wouldn’t want to have an appendectomy program that works on little 8 year old sally accidentally remove 55 year old Bobs right testicle because it couldn’t adapt to the differences in body size and layout.

> [@MarkJerue](#):
>
> And really difficult when you are at 200ish pain, and hardly know what an antiseptic is.
> 
> Ooooooh, the possibilities of death are already enticing!

Oh yeah, its not going to be fun, pretty, or healthy, but people did this for centuries before the invention of anesthesia. There are also plenty of cases of people being trapped and cutting their own hand/arm/leg off to escape.

It would definitely be easier with assistance though. Something to consider as well.

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**Author:** ![\_k1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/_k1/32/1335_2.png) [@\_k1](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/_k1)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/18 "2018-11-29T14:20:40Z")

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Itd be like cancer. Sometimes it just re-grows…

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**Author:** ![MarkJerue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@MarkJerue](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/MarkJerue)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/19 "2018-11-29T15:26:11Z")

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I more mean that, assuming the autodoc was set up pre-Cataclysm and pre-mutations, it doesn’t have experience dealing with human tails. Human arms, sure, but not tails!

You could program it though… assuming you could figure out your own body makeup and where the tail started growing, where to cut without destroying your spine, all that fun jazz!

Mmmmmmm, does this make me evil that I enjoy this prospect? I’m even so evil I once reloaded a save file where I killed my character off on accident from drug overdose.

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**Author:** ![nameless\_survivor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nameless_survivor/32/4476_2.png) [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/surgical-removal-of-extra-mutated-parts/17648/20 "2018-11-29T15:31:06Z")

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> [@MarkJerue](#):
>
> I more mean that, assuming the autodoc was set up pre-Cataclysm and pre-mutations, it doesn’t have experience dealing with human tails. Human arms, sure, but not tails!

Actually, even a pre-cataclysm autodoc would probably be able to remove small tails. Vestigial tails are a well documented but rare birth defect in humans. You might need to tweak the program to remove larger ones, but I don’t see that as being an impossible hurdle.

> [@MarkJerue](#):
>
> You could program it though… assuming you could figure out your own body makeup and where the tail started growing, where to cut without destroying your spine, all that fun jazz!

Since it would have a basic framework to work with, I don’t think the autodoc would be as difficult to adjust or as likely to damage your spine as you might think.

> **[Spectrum of human tails: A report of six cases](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263034/)**
>
> Human tail is a curiosity, a cosmetic stigma and presents as an appendage in the lumbosacral region. Six patients of tail in the lumbosacral region are presented here to discuss the spectrum of presentation of human tails. The embryology, pathology...