# Suggestion: Reduce healing effects on 'Frail' characters

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [November 11, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922 "2013-11-11T14:23:25Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Medicine](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/medicine/32/211_2.png) [@Medicine](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Medicine)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/1 "2013-11-11T14:23:25Z")

</div>

Tried looking this up, and it seems someone [suggested it on GitHub](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/464) when the trait was introduced (as ‘Hardcore’) but nothing came of it.

Anyway, characters with the ‘frail’ trait still receive the usual amount of healing (numerically) from all sources as a normal character. This means that one bandage or a quick nap can be all it takes to completely heal your hideously mauled torso. This sort of conflicts with the idea of the trait, since it’s not currently that hard to medicate yourself mid-combat.

I do also think that applying bandages, first aid etc. ought to take longer, but that’s a separate idea.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rutilant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e57/32.png) [@Rutilant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Rutilant)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/2 "2013-11-12T02:21:22Z")

</div>

[quote=“Medicine, post:1, topic:3922”]Tried looking this up, and it seems someone [suggested it on GitHub](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/464) when the trait was introduced (as ‘Hardcore’) but nothing came of it.

Anyway, characters with the ‘frail’ trait still receive the usual amount of healing (numerically) from all sources as a normal character. This means that one bandage or a quick nap can be all it takes to completely heal your hideously mauled torso. This sort of conflicts with the idea of the trait, since it’s not currently that hard to medicate yourself mid-combat.

I do also think that applying bandages, first aid etc. ought to take longer, but that’s a separate idea.[/quote]

Agreed that applying first aid (bandages or literal kits or otherwise) in between swinging probably shouldn’t be happening if it is - I haven’t tried since I assumed it would give everything ample opportunity to help themselves to my vital juices.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Inadequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Inadequate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Inadequate)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/3 "2013-11-12T03:59:55Z")

</div>

Why do people here like making everything take arbitrarily longer and be arbitrarily harder for no particular reason?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rivet](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/rivet/32/11_2.png) [@Rivet](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Rivet)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/4 "2013-11-12T04:45:32Z")

</div>

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> Why do people here like making everything take arbitrarily longer and be arbitrarily harder for no particular reason?

I wonder this all the time.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Medicine](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/medicine/32/211_2.png) [@Medicine](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Medicine)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 12:05pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/5 "2013-11-12T12:05:38Z")

</div>

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> Why do people here like making everything take arbitrarily longer and be arbitrarily harder for no particular reason?

I’m just a realism guy. My suspension of disbelief (and enjoyment of the roleplaying element of the game) sort of collapses when I’m dropping twenty zombies with a katana whilst simultaneously drinking cola and bandaging my own head. Call me a purist.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Inadequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Inadequate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Inadequate)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/6 "2013-11-12T13:02:14Z")

</div>

I think we should have to press a button every turn to force the character to breathe. If not pressed this will cause him to instantly die of oxygen deprivation. To reflect the randomly firing neurons in the brain, this button should change randomly. I am a purist you see, and

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Medicine](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/medicine/32/211_2.png) [@Medicine](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Medicine)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/7 "2013-11-12T13:38:47Z")

</div>

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> I think we should have to press a button every turn to force the character to breathe. If not pressed this will cause him to instantly die of oxygen deprivation. To reflect the randomly firing neurons in the brain, this button should change randomly. I am a purist you see, and

> **[Reductio ad absurdum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum)**
>
> In logic, reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to absurdity"), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin for "argument to absurdity") or apagogical arguments, is the form of argument that attempts to establish a claim by showing that the opposite scenario would lead to absurdity or contradiction. 
> This argument form traces back to Ancient Greek philosophy and has been used throughout history in both formal mathematical and philosophical reasoning, as well as in debate. The equivalent for...

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![infectedmochi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/infectedmochi/32/206_2.png) [@infectedmochi](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/infectedmochi)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/8 "2013-11-12T14:03:36Z")

</div>

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> Why do people here like making everything take arbitrarily longer and be arbitrarily harder for no particular reason?

Isn’t it for the realism reason? You need a safe and quiet corner to patch up any wounds accumulated in combat, it takes time. Right now given enough skill in combat and first aid, fighting a zombie horde is a one time attempt, you just need to stop cutting down zombies and apply bandage/first aid then resume fighting until everything is dead.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![freezerbunny](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/freezerbunny/32/219_2.png) [@freezerbunny](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/freezerbunny)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/9 "2013-11-12T15:23:08Z")

</div>

> [@Medicine](#):
>
> [quote=“Inadequate, post:3, topic:3922”]Why do people here like making everything take arbitrarily longer and be arbitrarily harder for no particular reason?

I’m just a realism guy. My suspension of disbelief (and enjoyment of the roleplaying element of the game) sort of collapses when I’m dropping twenty zombies with a katana whilst simultaneously drinking cola and bandaging my own head. Call me a purist.[/quote]

There is a realistic explanation:

Your wounding is exactly the same as anyone elses, just you can’t take as many wounds before you die.

So, a normal player could have four gunshot wounds in their torso and survive.

A frail character would die at two gunshot wounds.

But since they’re both gunshot wounds, they should both be healed the same way. Just because the character is frail, doesn’t mean the gunshot wound suddenly explodes in their chest ripping out heart. It just means the character can’t take as many of these wounds, but functionally the wounds are healed the same way.

Make sense?

But yes, you shouldn’t be able to bandage yourself and take first aid mid-combat. That needs to be changed. A new item should be implemented if players want mid-combat healing, such as a stimulation pack that temporarily buffs your HP.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Inadequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Inadequate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Inadequate)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/10 "2013-11-12T15:47:17Z")

</div>

Introducing additional items to replace a perfectly functional system just adds bloat to the game. It’s not like everyone has an endless supply of bandages, anyway. I always figured it was more on the lines of slapping on a quick patch to make sure nothing major falls out.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Medicine](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/medicine/32/211_2.png) [@Medicine](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Medicine)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/11 "2013-11-12T15:53:11Z")

</div>

> [@freezerbunny](#):
>
> There is a realistic explanation:

I understand your point - a bandage heals a cut, no matter who it’s on. The reason I don’t agree with the current system is that it trivializes ‘Frail’ as a character choice, and also means that you can go from being ‘hanging to life by a thread’ to ‘fresh as a daisy’ in the space of slapping on a couple of bandages. There’s a separate issue, as well, in that you can be grievously injured but not in much pain (since pain doesn’t outwardly seem to depend on the proportion of health you’ve lost).

I’d be happy with either solution as a stop-gap, though; I just think it has less impact on the overall game (and steps on fewer Rambo-toes) if you make Frail characters harder to heal.

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> Introducing additional items

I don’t remember anyone proposing that.

EDIT: Nevermind, re-read freezer’s post.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![freezerbunny](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/freezerbunny/32/219_2.png) [@freezerbunny](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/freezerbunny)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/12 "2013-11-12T15:54:28Z")

</div>

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> Introducing additional items to replace a perfectly functional system just adds bloat to the game.

I disagree.

More items = more depth, adds to that sense of “this world is real”. Compare stable to experimental. Experimental has hundreds of new items and it really makes the game feel deeper and more real.

It doesn’t replace the system. It adds to the system.

If we change some functionality that players depend on, we should introduce a replacement that makes more sense. This makes more sense. The only argument I’m seeing here is “don’t nerf me please”. When something is broken, it needs to be fixed. It also makes the first aid skill more valuable, as we could add the new item to its craft list. This would mean medic characters would have a more significant advantage over other players, as they would have a head-start in making stims.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![infectedmochi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/infectedmochi/32/206_2.png) [@infectedmochi](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/infectedmochi)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/13 "2013-11-12T15:57:58Z")

</div>

As long as the new items do not spawn new bugs and break the game, other than that, I agree wholeheartedly 😛

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![freezerbunny](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/freezerbunny/32/219_2.png) [@freezerbunny](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/freezerbunny)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/14 "2013-11-12T16:05:42Z")

</div>

I looked at the code.

Using any healing item takes zero turns. ZERO TURNS.

No. It does not make sense that you can apply as many bandages and use as many first aid kits as you like, mid-fight, to heal up to max from near death.  
That is just wrong. It’s essentially invincibility as per mainstream RPGs, and many people complain about that. Set them to use modest values (1 turn for bandage, 1 turn for rag, 4 turns for first aid).

PR[#4308](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/4308)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Inadequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Inadequate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Inadequate)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/15 "2013-11-12T17:04:59Z")

</div>

Huh. I really thought it took at least one turn in the current system. I guess those values you propose don’t sound too bad.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Weyrling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@Weyrling](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Weyrling)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/16 "2013-11-12T20:29:56Z")

</div>

I think it might be worthwhile to make most of the commands take atleast a few movement points.  
For example, even though the ‘V’ command is extraordinarily useful I know I wouldn’t be able to locate and identify every single item within several hundred feet without atleast spending a few seconds (or minutes) looking around.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![freezerbunny](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/freezerbunny/32/219_2.png) [@freezerbunny](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/freezerbunny)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/17 "2013-11-12T21:40:30Z")

</div>

[quote=“Weyrling, post:16, topic:3922”]I think it might be worthwhile to make most of the commands take atleast a few movement points.  
For example, even though the ‘V’ command is extraordinarily useful I know I wouldn’t be able to locate and identify every single item within several hundred feet without atleast spending a few seconds (or minutes) looking around.[/quote]

This is true, but it’s open to debate whether we want to.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Inadequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Inadequate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Inadequate)\
**Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/18 "2013-11-13T00:00:43Z")

</div>

[quote=“Weyrling, post:16, topic:3922”]I think it might be worthwhile to make most of the commands take atleast a few movement points.  
For example, even though the ‘V’ command is extraordinarily useful I know I wouldn’t be able to locate and identify every single item within several hundred feet without atleast spending a few seconds (or minutes) looking around.[/quote]

No.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Weyrling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@Weyrling](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Weyrling)\
**Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/19 "2013-11-13T00:37:34Z")

</div>

> [@Inadequate](#):
>
> [quote=“Weyrling, post:16, topic:3922”]…

No.[/quote]  
I wasn’t thinking a large number of movement points, but 10 or so would make sense.  
Spamming ‘V’ all the time to magically locate everything of interest anywhere remotely nearby is nearly as bad as being able to apply a dozen first aid kits instantaneously, I find omniscience in games makes them far too easy.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922/20 "2013-11-13T00:45:20Z")

</div>

> [@Weyrling](#):
>
> [quote=“Inadequate, post:18, topic:3922”][quote=“Weyrling, post:16, topic:3922”]…

No.[/quote]  
I wasn’t thinking a large number of movement points, but 10 or so would make sense.  
Spamming ‘V’ all the time to magically locate everything of interest anywhere remotely nearby is nearly as bad as being able to apply a dozen first aid kits instantaneously, I find omniscience in games makes them far too easy.[/quote]

Oppose. “I find omniscience in games makes them far too easy.” means you don’t hit V, or you mod the cost into your own fork. Not that you take it away from everyone.

I find being able to look around the room and see what’s on the shelves, counter, etc makes perfect sense.

[Next page](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/suggestion-reduce-healing-effects-on-frail-characters/3922.md?page=2)